Sillysoft Games Forums: Luxtopia

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Rhye
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:17 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

Nimrod7 wrote:

The problem with this argument is that

1. as Dustin loves to point out, most people who buy the game play off line.

2. Dustin makes no money hosting online games. There is no fee to play online.

Firstly, I'm going to pussyfoot for a moment, because I still have not personally decided what my entire argument will be or even which side I agree with. Now, moving on...

Nimrod, I have no idea why you think you think your argument has any weight here. That defense is as weak as 1. e4 a5.

Q: If Online Lux does not earn dustin any profit then why does he do it?
A: Out of the goodness of his heart, I suppose.
Q: If dustin is keeping this community going to please us, why won't he let we, the people, make the decisions we feel are constructive?
A: Well... perhaps he does do it for profit in that case.
Q: Why doesn't dustin want his customers to help him make his most important decisions regarding the product, at least insomuch that they are willing to accept those decisions?

Is a good deed really so good when it is done to be bragged about?

You know, we've seen the Communist system fail in Russia... I'm interested in seeing what it does here.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: plane crazy
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:49 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

Nim,

Quote:

1. A player's start determines a win instead of said player's skill. This isn't every game, but I would say it is 40-60% of them. I can remember a player winning in round four and apologizing for the win because it was based on his start.

The ranking system is supposed to be based on some sort of skill not having a fantastic start 2 or 3 games out of 5. That is where the raw penalty comes in.

Ummm this is a poor argument. Any one start allows any player odds for a good start, or a bad start. 1 in 6, is 1 in 6 every game. The luck factor is the same for each player, each and every game. So "luck" should not play any part in killing bio. Luck argument point defeated.

PC 1, Mods 0

Quote:

2. "Bad" moves are not detrimental to a player's chances of winning.

This is mostly because of the income bonus. I have seen plenty of players half kill the crap out of opponents (and themselves in the process) and survive to have a great chance of winning because though their army count was low, they had conquered enough "continents" to start their next turn with a ton of armies.

This may be fine in bio, but you take those same players who have played only bio and put them in another map and the only thing those moves are going to do is ruin games and cause the asshat to lose. That is where skill comes in.

No. Bad moves in bio, like any other game will cause you to lose. What you shoulda said was, "in bio games, some players get away with making a stupid-ass, big bad move and then still win the game". Yeah it happens, but no way is it normal, or even that common. Bad play kills you on any map most every time. This issue should not be 10% enough of a reason to warrant killing bio as it exists today.

PC 2, Mods 0

And,

Lux is a business. I had to pay to get the game and play on-line. I, as all of you, are Dustins customers.

As for Dustin not making big money from the on-line community, see above. While he may not make big money from his on-line Lux addicts, or any from the "hosting" of the on-line community, there should be a healthy respect for what maps the on-line community chooses to play while on-line. To tell a customer that they are "wrong" and "less skillful" for playing the companies most popular on-line map....really? And oh yeah, "in your best intrest we are taking away the game you like to play" is, is, well is just, just...crazy.

Bring it on people, lets hear a real objective reason for killing-off bio as it exists today.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: The Silken Knot
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:41 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

plane,

Like Nimmy, I was also one of the holdouts against this when I was a moderator... and I still am.

It is not "our" job to decide whether people should play what they want, or play what some people think they should want. n00less is entitled to his opinion as a former player. I am entitled to my opinion as a former moderator. We are both free to express our personal opinions, as is any member of the community. And I hope people will continue to do so.

But the decision is dustin's to make, with advice from his moderators, and anyone else whose opinion he wishes to consider. Here's mine:

vehemently

Whatever needs to happen, it can happen without gutting Bio-Deux. In my personal opinion.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Llux Llama
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:17 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

Also, if you DO want to do a total restructuring you have to forget what any of us think about the "big three maps". You have the basic bastions of opinions. Restructure along the lines you think are best. When we show up we will form a new play culture or we will leave. Don't try and please everybody. Make the game you want to make. Again. With what you know now. And then sell the online experience to people. I guess this all is aimed at dustin.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: guillerme
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:17 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

I propose to create a bio-only tracker with all bio rooms, plus a MOTW, no extra bonuses, a Rome room, a Classic room too, with moderators who at least moderate without feeling their eyes hurt and their minds damaged..., would be something like Biolandia, where the player bio feel happy and not guilty of the current state of lux ... And yes, we would be like rookies, noobs or not high skill player, as a kind of underworld in lux ...
Bio needs his own place where expand, people play it, and with a little more "positive motivation" perhaps even develops ... But not censor it ...
As we think that bio killed lux?! is impossible to determine it. As someone said in the forum, "people have a real life and sometimes the game was postponed" ... or maybe the game is not a priority ... or maybe the game was transformed into something too personalistic, or perhaps after people chased thosed medals, realized that "those motorcycle that go to 1000, just the wind will make you feel" and then thinking that the only important thing are the talks in the chat, the friends that were made , and the situations experienced in the rooms every day ... well, "the fun ...", because taking the world is still fun, right?
I dont know who LEVER DOWN in bio, but I want you to know that is a solution so precarious and mediocre as the "skill bioplayers".
Nothing will win by eliminating bio, and as I said earlier, bio needs its place, its moderators, add its ranking, and a little positive motivation, with that, we will be ok...
Ps: I will do the same if Classic, Rome, etc., would be in risk.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Llux Llama
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:10 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

I am of the opinion that bio Should be left alone. Continue the time based penalty. But that's all. Why?

It doesn't really make any difference at this point. A better map- a more balanced map MOTW bonus- hell put the raw up to 11 in classic-

The players that are left who join bio are there because it has been their hangout for years and don't play for RAW anymore.

The RAW players could fill one room. Maybe 2 on a good week.

I agree with the criticisms of the actual bio map as far as competitive balance. However, whatever Lux was, it is no longer the equivalent of a ranked chess tournament. If bio is monopoly, then it is monopoly. A lot of people have been hanging in there laughing and playing monopoly for a while now.

If you want Lux to be a site wide balanced competition again then you have to make some radical site wide changes. Just adjusting bio up and down because that's where the people are is rude. You do not need the bio people to colonize the rest of the maps. You need the nonbio people to colonize the other maps.

Mbaurs new maps. How bout calling them "chase maps". Chase map bio. Chase map classic, Chase map rome. Chase map blobz. Whatever. Use the knowledge you have to make good balanced chase maps.

And then?

Hope grenlight or whatnot works. Fix the forum servers. Make sure Lux is ready on its own sans para to host new players and new competitions. Highlight the chase as the competitive aspect of online Lux.

Adjusting raw up and down, trying to stick cheese in front of bio rats to lure them somewhere else is not working. So don't take the last bastion of happy players and take their game away. UNless it is part of a total restructuring. Other wise you are pissing off people for no gain.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Nimrod7
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:42 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

plane crazy wrote:

Quote:

The question is still unresolved if it is our job to give the public what it wants or what we think they SHOULD have....

No way you actually wrote that down. Really? Lux is a business, not a government. Business knows it is ALWAYS about what the people want.

The problem with this argument is that

1. as Dustin loves to point out, most people who buy the game play off line.

2. Dustin makes no money hosting online games. There is no fee to play online.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: plane crazy
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:40 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

Quote:

The fact that there is a SIGNIFICANTLY higher factor of luck on Bio is not subjective.

Prove it, then it is a fact, your saying it does not make it a "fact". I imagine lots of great players that have risen to greatness on the back of their bio playing skills would take offence that their success is significantly due to luck.
You are all still making the mistake of comparing the games to each other. They are too different to compare. Each is a universe alone.

Quote:

The question is still unresolved if it is our job to give the public what it wants or what we think they SHOULD have....

No way you actually wrote that down. Really? Lux is a business, not a government. Business knows it is ALWAYS about what the people want.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Nimrod7
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:39 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

paranoiarodeo wrote:

Long story short, after months and months of disagreement and discussion, the entire Mod Squad came to a unanimous decision that biodeux, as it exists today, needs to be phased outta Lux, and replaced with better alternatives.

This is the key phrase. As of now, Dustin doesn't want bio to disappear from the tracker. This is why Mbauer has been working on a "new" bio map.

This is also not a decision that was made lightly. The mod squad had discussed this for eight months (and the community has been debating it for years) before a decision was made.

Plane, I was one of the holdouts as far as pulling the plug on bio when the mods started this whole discussion. Here are the two major things that changed my mind after having played a bunch of games between January and April.

1. A player's start determines a win instead of said player's skill. This isn't every game, but I would say it is 40-60% of them. I can remember a player winning in round four and apologizing for the win because it was based on his start.

The ranking system is supposed to be based on some sort of skill not having a fantastic start 2 or 3 games out of 5. That is where the raw penalty comes in.

2. "Bad" moves are not detrimental to a player's chances of winning.

This is mostly because of the income bonus. I have seen plenty of players half kill the crap out of opponents (and themselves in the process) and survive to have a great chance of winning because though their army count was low, they had conquered enough "continents" to start their next turn with a ton of armies.

This may be fine in bio, but you take those same players who have played only bio and put them in another map and the only thing those moves are going to do is ruin games and cause the asshat to lose. That is where skill comes in.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Big Will E Style
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:30 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

juveke wrote:

forgot to say that classic players were always jealous about the popularity of bio map. Their arguments are always (this has been for many years) that classic map develops your inteligence, bio is only for loosers.
I congratulate all of the good people from classic map - finnaly they got a way to f* bio map players.

(one more inteligent comment from a abnormal bio player).

You're not going to get anywhere with silly comments like that...

Jealousy has nothing to do with it.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: n00less cluebie
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:20 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

The fact that there is a SIGNIFICANTLY higher factor of luck on Bio is not subjective. The fact that bio games are often ridiculously imbalanced is also a fact. HOWEVER, I'm still not convinced that there isn't a public desire to play bio BECAUSE people they ENJOY the chaotic nature of the game and its imbalance. The question is still unresolved if it is our job to give the public what it wants or what we think they SHOULD have....

Granted, there's not a lot left to lose by trying something new but there are obviously still people who play Bio because they enjoy it more, faults and all. I'm sure there is ALSO a percentage of LUXXERS who would rather play Classic but play bio because that's the map that's offered

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: plane crazy
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:56 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

So what is this about Schro? Nobody yet has posted an objective reason for the "phasing-out" of bio as we know it.

All the reasons are subjective without any substance. (Except for Rhye's time the game takes argument, which you mods say is not accurate.....)

Bio is toxic.
Player count is down since 2004.
'Cause biodeux is a freakin' slot machine, and barely qualifies as a game of skill.
The corrosive effects that biodeux has had upon both the social and competitive aspects of Lux.
Players don't "choose" to play bio, they are "forced" to play it. (this is sooooooo insulting)

All these are subjective, judgmental opinions for not liking bio without any objective proof, at all.

So what is this about? I respect you a lot schro, I will respect your objective argument for phasing-out bio. Just tell me what it is.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Schroberts
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:32 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

For the record, this isn't about classic vs. bio. At least, it definitely isn't for me. There are lots of other maps besides bio that are not classic.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: juveke
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:02 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

forgot to say that classic players were always jealous about the popularity of bio map. Their arguments are always (this has been for many years) that classic map develops your inteligence, bio is only for loosers.
I congratulate all of the good people from classic map - finnaly they got a way to f* bio map players.

(one more inteligent comment from a abnormal bio player).

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: juveke
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:56 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

I completly agree with plane crazy.
It is not my best argument (just saying I agree with my lux friend), for inteligent people (and there are many in this game) I think this remark should be enough.
I, as all of you, payed for this game and have some expectations about it ... reading that bio players are kind of "trash" that must be removed from the board is a bit unfair, I think.
I'm not playing this game anymore (just a few times in the year), and you go guess why ...
At least, as a costumer (and I bought the whole package) I don't feel very well treated ...
have fun, maybe when I come here, in a few mounths, bio would have been terminated ...

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Big Will E Style
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:32 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

I'm kind of in agreement with Plane...as much as I wish bio wasn't the primary map, it seems a little overboard to "phase it out"...but whatever.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: plane crazy
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:50 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

By my rough estimate in reviewing the tracker, over half the people that have bought Lux and play on-line play bio. I am deeply offended over the lack of respect some of you have for the choices these players make to play bio over other maps.

How dare you sit there and say we are wrong to want to play bio.

I am really some kinda pissed-off about this.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: The Silken Knot
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:42 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

∞ TSK would like to remind plane crazy she's not a moderator, lest she gets buzzed in Bio ∞

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: plane crazy
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:38 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

Quote:

the entire Mod Squad came to a unanimous decision that biodeux, as it exists today, needs to be phased outta Lux

That is a stupid decision by otherwise smart people.

Makes me very sad.

If you don't want to play bio, then stay the fuck out of the bio rooms and leave the bio players alone.

Grrrrr.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Rhye
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:30 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

(Rhye mumbles something about jokes.)

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Schroberts
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:11 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

Rhye, your answer may have sounded more fair to you, but it wasn't exactly correct. Which is more important?

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Rhye
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:11 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

(Rhye mumbles something about his answer sounding much more fair...)

If you guys want to try and force a phasing out of Biodeux, all I can say is good luck. (Hopefully not Good Night, and Good Luck).

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: paranoiarodeo
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:12 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

Rhye was off the mark. Points in biodeux games are, in fact, being reduced above and beyond the usual time adjustments that were implemented last September. That's why you all see the "ahoy ye mutants" message in those game results. It's also worth noting that dustin himself added the penalty to the RAW formula without consulting me beforehand. Happened around the same time he jacked up the MOTW bonus. Millty's backhanded political comment was entirely off the mark in that regard. Blame Canada. Long story short, after months and months of disagreement and discussion, the entire Mod Squad came to a unanimous decision that biodeux, as it exists today, needs to be phased outta Lux, and replaced with better alternatives. Unfortunately, that's easier said than done. Worse, I've been woefully distracted by real life in recent months, and unable blueprint the changes, post public explanations, and push forward with implementation. I'll have some things to say about this and more next week, and hopefully I can get things moving sooner than later.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: Milltycoon
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

And Baden's comment is just fairly bad timing for me, since I am currently hosting a tournament that plays 16 of the obscure maps that no one ever plays.

Luxtopia :: RE: BIO players punished?

Author: The Silken Knot
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm (GMT -5)
Topic Replies: 34

I thought you liked to be punished, plane. My bad. We'll change everything.