Discussion on rankings specific to map.

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WhirlPlaid
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Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by WhirlPlaid » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:13 pm

I'll be brief.

How about we completely eliminate RAW? We completely eliminate the weekly chase? We open four (or more) rooms, whose settings do NOT change, and we play four (or more) monthly tournaments? With medals given monthly.

Room 1: Classic, with as close to Classic rules settings as possible.
Room 2: Bio-Deux
Room 3: Expletus
Room 4: Cube Wars or Last King or Scotland (whatever).
Room 5: Rome II

Now, a player who loves a specific map can compete only against other players that love the same map. It might take a while to earn back a Classic crowd, but if the word got out about a format change, maybe this would catch on.

A super ambitious player, could try to medal in all four rooms. People with less time could try to medal on just the map they prefer.

I do think that the existing tournament format (the one used in Luxtoberfest12) would require some tweaking, but I think a a month long competition specific to the map of your choice might be appealing to players.

I know that this will open a door for many questions, I have a few that popped into my head while typing this, but I said I would keep this brief.
Last edited by WhirlPlaid on Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by RogueMonk » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:24 pm

Why do people have to be so negative? :lol:

I don't play bio. I don't like it. I have lots of thoughts about it.

But, bottom line - people play it and like playing it. So what? Let them play. In fact, I am glad they play, because if they didn't lux would be completely dead--rather than just mostly dead.

And, I have lurked a fair bit in bio rooms lately. The place is far less negative than it is often portrayed. For the most part, people enjoy the game and each other. The whole bio-cestpool thing is mostly rhetoric.

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by dustin » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:20 pm

Dominator wrote:During the week of June 24 2007, BIO got its turn as MOTW. This is essentially the moment where it was really introduced to the community.... That week came and went - classic went back to being the dominant map, however BIO became hosted on a regular basis after that point.
One of the big goals of MOTW was to introduce the community to new maps, and see which ones stuck. I believe Imperium Romanum Expletus also got a boost in popularity when it was first a MOTW.

If there were different rankings for different maps I could see it be divided something like this:
- Classic
- BIO
- Imperium Romanum / Roman Empire II
- MOTM

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Lantern » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:54 pm

Can you make that happen? Even if you continue the current rankings. Maybe these could run concurrently?

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Dominator » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:05 pm

dustin wrote: One of the big goals of MOTW was to introduce the community to new maps, and see which ones stuck. I believe Imperium Romanum Expletus also got a boost in popularity when it was first a MOTW.

If there were different rankings for different maps I could see it be divided something like this:
- Classic
- BIO
- Imperium Romanum / Roman Empire II
- MOTM
It certainly helped provide exposure to the maps - which is a good thing. The unanticipated effects was the eventual abandonment of other maps, such as classic.

I think the ranking divisions you outlined would make the most sense, each player could have a separate RAW score for each. Then a "cumulative" RAW across all ranking divisions to promote cross map play. Then you could tinker with the weighting for each separate ranking to promote more play in designated map groupings.

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Bean » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:15 pm

I like the ideas. Perhaps one of the slots could be a bit more of a rotation, not just a fixed map all the time, even beyond the motm or motw. A person could curate it, or even be elected or nominated somehow to curate it (act as an advocate, try to play it a lot that week or month, be the whipping post for complaints about it, etc.) Since such a great scheme would make me happy, the rhetorical problems of bio deux would go away, since I would lift my boycott and my very presence would heal its wounds and cheer Aqua.

If it's not easy to do on the back end for some reason, it can be fixed by having different persons host each one.

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Shockandawe » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:20 pm

Dominator wrote:I haven't been very active for the past few years and my memory is a little hazy, but I was around during the transition from classic to BIO. I think it actually happened pretty rapidly. Back in 2005-2007 lux was dominated by classic and deux, but classic was undeniably king. During this time was when MOTW started picking up steam and to further push play on these maps, Dustin implemented a 1.5x RAW bonus for MOTW. Most maps didn't affect the rankings due to long/lengthy games. Then along came BIO. During the week of June 24 2007, BIO got its turn as MOTW. This is essentially the moment where it was really introduced to the community. Hosts jacked up continent bonuses and shortened turn timers to expedite games. With the short games and 1.5x RAW bonus for MOTW, that week resulted in the highest RAW since weekly RAW resets were adopted.

That week came and went - classic went back to being the dominant map, however BIO became hosted on a regular basis after that point. It was only a matter of time before players started realizing that RAW trends up (assuming opponents don't have too little) and shorter game times = more RAW. BIO then became an outlet for non-classic players to push up their RAW without having to compete in the classic rooms. Eventually it got to the point where even the best classic players could not keep up in the rankings with BIO because the games were so short. Classic players were then forced to play in BIO rooms in order to compete in the weekly ranks. Less than 8 months after BIO burst on the scene as MOTW, classic was pretty much dead. (Posted by none other than Aqua).

A lot of players (including myself) got frustrated with the culture and starting luck involved in the BIO map. Eventually, RAW increases were lessened first for high continent bonus % increases and then for games with less than 27 seconds maximum turn time. This was an attempt to level the playing field, but the damage was already done. Players had already gravitated towards the BIO map and, as stated, become creatures of habit. Players were not going to suddenly switch maps without major RAW incentives.

The fact of the matter is - Rankings/Awards have always driven human behavior in this game. History proves it. I think the solution was to separate the rankings/RAW for map groupings - maybe offer a combined medal for highest combined RAW to promote diversity. Instead of different bonuses on one system to force RAW chasers to play new maps. All maps are not equal - which IMO is where the ranking system fails and leads us to where we are today. I think diversity can only be built through a more comprehensive ranking system.

There was a time when I would dedicate a lot of time to the game and would play any map to get to the top of the rankings. Whether I liked it or not is another discussion - but I would most definitely follow the RAW. I ended up losing interest in this game when I stopped playing for a rank/seed. I would log in every so often to see if there was a classic game I could join, which started being few and far between. Eventually FH classic pretty much disappeared from the tracker, and so did I. It got to a point where I stopped checking because there was never a classic game I could join.

As for abuse in BIO - I think Owned hits the nail on the head. Its a political and income based game with strategic choke points. It naturally promotes abusive play. Don't get me wrong - when classic was dominant there was abusive play there as well, it wasn't all sunshine and roses. But from what I've seen in bio rooms, it was a lot more tame.
I believe it was in 2009-10 we saw the MOTW bonus get abused again after having been largely left alone up until that point as well. Long after Bio had established itself and been balanced more effectively. Serious damage was done then as well, but one could argue that it was a continuation of the culture established by the introduction of Bio.

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by AquaRegia » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:54 am

I also like the idea of separate rankings. Many of us who still play do so because we like to see our name on a leaderboard; why not have more leaderboards? I've never been a weekly medal winner, but I like to maintain my seeding and win%.

Domi, that summary was amazing. I'm glad you are still hanging around! I was shocked by that post you found... apparently in 2008 I was still not completely soured on Classic. ;-) I was a bit soured on Lux - I took a short break (from April 2008 until July 2011). When I came back, I got used to BioDeux.

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Bean » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:03 am

ima start a thread "old Aqua quotes"

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Dominator » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:10 pm

Shockandawe wrote:I believe it was in 2009-10 we saw the MOTW bonus get abused again after having been largely left alone up until that point as well. Long after Bio had established itself and been balanced more effectively. Serious damage was done then as well, but one could argue that it was a continuation of the culture established by the introduction of Bio.
A lot of that all just blends together in my memory, once BIO took over there were all sorts of issues with people gaming the rankings. That was also right around the time I was phasing out of lux. I was most active 2006-2009 with most of my serious playing in 2006/2007 and occasional play in 2008/2009. (Wow, its been a long time since I've been relevant.)
AquaRegia wrote:Domi, that summary was amazing. I'm glad you are still hanging around! I was shocked by that post you found... apparently in 2008 I was still not completely soured on Classic. ;-) I was a bit soured on Lux - I took a short break (from April 2008 until July 2011). When I came back, I got used to BioDeux.
Hehehe thank you! :)

I check in every so often now-a-days. Little more as of lately than I have in the past 2 years.

I just don't know if I will ever be able to come around to BIO, there's something about getting a poor start and being muscled off the map by round 3 that turns me off .... I've given it a chance and I just don't enjoy it.

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by dustin » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:15 pm

I've created a quick-n-dirty Classic specific raw leaderboard, as a test. Play some Classic games and you should see yourself ranked here:

http://sillysoft.net/lux/rankings/classic/

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Deep Blue » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:29 pm

Same for Imperium? :smt054

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Red Beard » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:14 pm

dustin wrote:I've created a quick-n-dirty Classic specific raw leaderboard, as a test. Play some Classic games and you should see yourself ranked here:

http://sillysoft.net/lux/rankings/classic/
Muuuhhahaha! Thanks Dusty! If you were to add anything, it would be nice to see how many games each player played in a given cycle. We played some good games tonight and it was quite a bit of fun. I forgot how much I enjoyed playing classic, so it was refreshing.

Dom: I'm glad you came back on the scene to leave such an indepth post. It kind of reminded me of Mach's old post about "old school" and "new school" from back in the day. It's always good to see some new faces now and again as well :)

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Re: BioDeux Abuse: Is it the Map or the Culture

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:25 pm

I'm confused. I have 601 regular RAW after 3 games and 560 Classic RAW. What does that mean?

Game (#1935984) finished November 18th 2015 5:42 PM using map Classic hosted by CLASSIC. The game lasted for 7 minutes. The starting position was initial countries random, initial armies random. Cards were set at 4, 6, 8, 10, 15, 20... transfer cards on conquer was ON, immediate cash was ON. The turn timer was set to 30s.
Name Position Rounds Lasted Raw Change New Raw Value
Big Will E Style 1 8 +82 601
Bean 2 8 +33 534
Dominator 3 8 +21 577
Killbot 4 7 0 401
blahblah 5 7 -76 799
Reaper 6 7 -32 422

Game (#1935982) finished November 18th 2015 5:34 PM using map Classic hosted by CLASSIC. The game lasted for 8 minutes. The starting position was initial countries random, initial armies random. Cards were set at 4, 6, 8, 10, 15, 20... transfer cards on conquer was ON, immediate cash was ON. The turn timer was set to 30s.
Name Position Rounds Lasted Raw Change New Raw Value
Big Will E Style 1 12 +20 519
Dominator 2 12 +2 556
RogueMonk 3 10 0 564
Reaper 4 10 0 456
Killbot 5 9 0 380
EvilPixie 6 9 -20 469

Game (#1935980) finished November 18th 2015 5:25 PM using map Classic hosted by CLASSIC. The game lasted for 6 minutes. The starting position was initial countries random, initial armies random. Cards were set at 4, 6, 8, 10, 15, 20... transfer cards on conquer was ON, immediate cash was ON. The turn timer was set to 30s.
Name Position Rounds Lasted Raw Change New Raw Value
Dominator 1 9 +14 554
Killbot 2 9 +37 380
Big Will E Style 3 9 -1 499
RogueMonk 4 8 -15 564
EvilPixie 5 8 -9 489
Reaper 6 8 -21 456

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by dustin » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:02 pm

RAW still functions as normal, and applies to every map.

Classic RAW is a new number. It's only affected by games played on the Classic map. In order to create a "Classic only" leaderboard.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:14 pm

so is the formula different? Because i've played 4 games this week. All classic. But my RAW is a lot different in classic vs. standard RAW.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by imapickle » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:25 pm

Presumably it was calculated using the other players´ classic raw, which was lower than their overall raw (?)

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:41 pm

Good point...a tad confusing for me though!

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Marauder » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:49 pm

There isn't the player base to do it anymore, but I remember suggesting separate rankings by map throughout the week with a chase on Sundays that rotated between maps and included the top players from the separate map rankings. The best on Sunday over all maps would win an additional "overall" medal. If you weren't interested in playing the other maps, you could still shoot for your map of choice medal throughout the week.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Dangerous Beans » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:52 pm

Marauder wrote:There isn't the player base to do it anymore
The cancer is widespread, complete surgical removal is the only hope- and a dim one at that.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by SnyperEye » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:18 am

I want diversity...playing the same maps over and over is boring. All maps should rotate from game to game. MOTM isn't the answer to this either even though it the best thing to playing other maps we have. Get rid of the raw factor and give each map its own ranks according to wins.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Bean » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:13 pm

+1

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by AquaRegia » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:30 pm

SnyperEye wrote:I want diversity...playing the same maps over and over is boring. All maps should rotate from game to game.
I tell you in no uncertain terms - if THAT happens I will never play online again. Map diversity is great... but you can't FORCE it on us. When I'm online, I want to play on maps I'm familiar with; I don't think I'm alone in that feeling.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by nimrod7 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:07 pm

You are definitely not alone Aqua.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Bean » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:26 pm

It took a long time, but I now know the truth of what you are saying. I am surprised that, not only are there lovers of consistency, but that the group is large and maybe even vastly larger than my group (Snype and me?). It was a big huge misconception of mine when I started playing Lux.

I worry I won't be effective in most businesses because I don't want to cater to customer preferences. As a builder, I don't want to install your crappy windows, your plain vanilla or beige this or that, etc. Then again, if I go to play Bridge, I don't want to show up and have to play pinochle, poker, or spades. At the end, I suppose I am sorry for calling you all Walmart shoppers for basically that preference. Walmart is a whole different kind of crap and you are not crappy like that.

There's probably room for map diversity even among folks who don't tend to prefer it, so it's all good. I will even come play bio with you sometimes to try to keep its peaceful and loving vibe. I think I even know a way to play new stuff with Snypereye....

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Dangerous Beans » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:11 pm

The ironic part is that map diversity is equivalent to Wallmart whereas classic is the high-end specialty product. Great analogy Bean, I like it.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by SnyperEye » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:58 pm

I get all the I want to play "what I know" maps but when Rome and Bio became the known they were just introduced maps that happened to click. So unless you are referring to classic risk and only play classic risk. There are opportunities for other maps to become the norm also. They are just not presented well. One can hope to be back to the days when we had multiple different host playing and hosting different maps. One of the reasons I stopped playing Lux and moved on to Vox was the same everyday maps being played here. It was also one of the reasons I created the Castles Tournament. So you have people who love the castle maps but yet they are not really played any other time of the year. WHY? because its outside of the norm? They are not presented as a normal map to play. A style I came to like and respect was winners pick. I just think we can pick up a thing or two from this.

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Rhye » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:14 pm

Snyper wrote:A style I came to like and respect was winners pick. I just think we can pick up a thing or two from this.
∞ Rhye boos. ∞

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Re: Discussion on rankings specific to map.

Post by Bean » Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:41 pm

bean cheers.

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