Discussion about Turtling

[Rhye]

The fact that your lazy strategy works to any extent only shows how broken the game is.

[kitty on catnip]

The fact that your lazy strategy works to any extent only shows how broken the game is.

Would not a ninja who dresses as a pauper outside the city gates be victorious once waiting 6 months to assassinate the evil warlord ruining his homeland?

[Llama LluxaLlot]

There has to be a place to recognize playing achievement as it exists right now in the Lux of today. There is a wonderful thread in the pub currently discussing the downfalls of the game. If that one is not to your liking, please start another thread. The congratulation threads for weekly, monthly, MOTM, seeds and tournaments shall henseforth be reserved for honoring play.

[kitty on catnip]

The congratulation threads for weekly, monthly, MOTM, seeds and tournaments shall henseforth be reserved for honoring play.

What if it was won through dishonorable means?

[Naraku]

The fact that your lazy strategy works to any extent only shows how broken the game is.

you must really be drunk or joking there Rhye. I've seen you turtle many a time. Lazy strategy? I'm not a huge fan of turtles as everyone in lux knows, however there are times when it is valid or completely acceptable to skip cards or to be passive when you have small armies no inc and a small chance to win the game. I have watched the turtle Emperess in many games and have seen her completely valid strategy work because everyone underestimates how dangerous turtles really are!!!!

Turtling in no way shape or form shows how the game is broken. IF you have a thought or two on the state of lux then go share it in the pub or make a new thread called "Rhye thinks lux is broken" or w/e clever name you want to pick out for your flawed premise.

KoC if that's the case then please civilly discuss it in a new thread leave the congratz thread clear of any flaming or other unhappy poo you would like to fling. "New Topic" exists for a reason KoC.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

kitty,

You are encouraged to discuss that outside of congratulations threads.

[kitty on catnip]

Thank you for the enlightening conversation Narwhalku and Baaaa Baaaaa Black sheep

(Is naraku positioning himself for modsponsorship to gain the favoritism of dustin?)

[Naraku]

DID you want any bumperstickers or yard signs from my campaign headquarters KoC?


See I figured it was an election year and all so I thought "why not run for mod!!! Anyone can get elected!!!"

Plus I wanted to follow in the footsteps of all the other fine BANE brothers and sisters who have sat in the mod hottub.

[GFips]

Just for your info: I have split this to a separate topic and named it "discussion about turteling".
I hope we can get an objective and serious discussion (outside of congratulations threads).
I encourage you to discuss here.

[Naraku]

I feel personally attacked by this split! I demand it be returned to it's previous thread!!!

[nimrod7]

The fact that your lazy strategy works to any extent only shows how broken the game is.

This strategy has been used since I started in 2007 and probably before that. It works. Get over it. Move on.

[kitty on catnip]

I won 3 FH games in a row on maps I did not know at all by turtling.

It's a valid strategy.

I am going to put into question Rhye's seriousness of the original point.

Seems like Rhye wishes to go back to the Civil War and Roman army war arrangements where they all line up in a pretty line and march towards one another, only to get shot by cannons or lines of defensive archers.

Read some more Sun Tzu and you may realize war is more than just outnumbering your opponent from a lucky start. Sometimes the best war strategy is to remain neutral, passive and strike once the moment presents itself.

[Rhye]

Don't put words in my mouth. I turtle when I have no other choice, yes. In "classical Risk" Turtling is meant to be an emergency-only strategy, which reduces your win chance to a mere couple of percentage points, so one should only turtle when they think their win percentage has fallen below this threshold. Though, even then, it will be much to the chagrin of one's fellow players. Mnemo goes into every game with the intention of turtling—that is the aspect that I find lazy. So I find the game broken, as it does not follow this notion of Turtling as a "gut shot" strategy. Though, actually, the turtling being effective is more of a symptom of the game's imbalances than a cause, but that's neither here nor there.

My intention of posting was only to bail out my pal Symbio from Mnemo's pride, nothing more. But if you want to discuss turtling under "my thread" I wouldn't mind that.

[Ah now kitty has gone and spammed some more, so I guess I ought to lengthen this post in order to quash his enthusiasm...]

It is my belief that Risk, fundamentally, is a game about math and logic: cards and good positioning. If I wanted to play a game about diplomatic intrigue, I would play Hasbro's Diplomacy, or else some other game not based on a board game. Frankly, I would rather play Lux as a good Risk game than as a lackluster "warfare simulator". While, of course, each of us is entitled to his/her own opinion, I would prefer that you not spout Sun Tzu quotes and pretend that they're relevant.

[nimrod7]

In "classical Risk" Turtling is meant to be an emergency-only strategy, which reduces your win chance to a mere couple of percentage points, so one should only turtle when they think their win percentage has fallen below this threshold.

I'm sorry, I missed that rule. I assumed it was my right to play the game in the way I wanted to not the way you think it should be played. Thank you for enlightening me on the rules of Risk.

[Rhye]

I was discussing strategy, not rules. You are free to play the game however you want, regardless of how strategic your play is.

Also, kudos to you for playing the Lux nitpicking game, in which you ignore the entirety of one's post in order to try and find the one line which you think will make the poster look bad. Personally, I think you failed, but it's the thought that counts.

[kitty on catnip]

[Ah now kitty has gone and spammed some more, so I guess I ought to lengthen this post in order to quash his enthusiasm...]

Are you the pot or the kettle this time?

kitty on catnip thinks anyone making claims that turtling is not a valid strategy oh sorry *cough lazy strategy cough* is spamming

You could make the point that if mnemo turtles 100% of the time then it's an ineffective strategy but it's a far far conclusion to suggest it's 'lazy'.

[Carl Spackler]

Mnemo goes into every game with the intention of turtling—that is the aspect that I find lazy. So I find the game broken, as it does not follow this notion of Turtling as a "gut shot" strategy.

Carl has played quite a few games with Mnemo, and does not believe this to be an accurate statement....

[Carl Spackler]

1. get income
2. turtle
3. wait for somebody else to flip the table in boredom and frustration
4. clean up trash for win
5. rinse
6. repeat

Carl thinks that this post reeks of sour grapes....

[plane crazy]

To turtle in an emergency and do it well is just as strategic as any other form of play. Period. Haters be damned for hating.
My starts lately have been a bitter, poison of horror and If I find turtling to be my only choice to live and perhaps win, or at least get second or third instead of last, well that is my choice and nobody shall question it, or say it is not honorable.

Sincerely,

Scooter


I agree with Scooter on this one.

/me

[Symbiosis]

Carl thinks that this post reeks of sour grapes....

Sour grapes is when you say the prize is worthless, not when you bemoan the path another takes to her prize. Try again.

In the last game before 5:00 PM EST, Tanit had the second-highest income and decided to be the third player of the game to turtle, guaranteeing a marathon and a giant waste of time. Like the Pythagorean theorem, there are many proofs that bio is a broken map, and one of those proofs is that turtling in round 4 in half your games is a viable path to the #1 seed.

[hoodie]

Scooter is the Lil Sebastian of Luxtopia.

[Symbiosis]

I have nothing against turtling in itself, if it's done with discretion and you take a card so you still have a shot at first. Turtling because you're risk-averse and prefer to wait until somebody else makes a mistake or (very often) gets bored and decides to open the game up with a knowingly bad move... again, it's just one more reflection on this game.

[Naraku]

I have to 100% disagree with you there SymBANE

That she can turtle to 1st seed in bio is a small miracle in itself. Bio is a violent often chaotic map where players are routinely HK'd or popped for no strategic gain or reason other than to be a douche ass-hat. for example if you start last in bio often times when you finally get to your turn you have 3-4 lands and about 10-12 armies left on the map plus a whole 3 inc!!! So now it's your turn all the great 1 land inc's are now spoken for and you have to somehow carve a path to the win. So if you turtle from round 1 there that doesn't prove bio is broken. It shows that bio is a cruel hard map to win on. When she wins the week or takes 2nd for the week and gains 1st seed YET AGAIN for the 3rd time using this strategy to me that shows how successful she has been at being able to outwit, outlast, and out play all her other opponents.

Time and again I've advocated for killing the turtle 1st so it feels weird saying it's ok to turtle (only in limited or emergency circumstances imho but to each their own). Turtles are dangerous!!! They are sneaking creatures that snap when you least expect it. Turtle soup anyone?

Gg's M and congratulations again for being the most successful turtle in luxtopia!!! I'm sure somewhere in the world tortoise is super jelly of you right now!!!!

[mnemosyne]

ok, i will take the bait (for the record, i do not particularly like being baited, symbi and rhye):

1. i am curious why, oh majestic moose (or, gfips, the worthy thread splitter . . . which was a good split btw), the original belittling and negative post from symbiosis is still in the congratulations thread, and not moved to the split thread on turtling (or just deleted):

The congratulation threads for weekly, monthly, MOTM, seeds and tournaments shall henseforth be reserved for honoring play

2. i am happy to hear that certain luxers have penetrated my mind and intentions, and monitored all of my games to say with assurance that:

a.

Mnemo goes into every game with the intention of turtling—that is the aspect that I find lazy.

b.

turtling in round 4 in half your games

i am sure orwell would be pleased to welcome you in the 'ministry of truth.' the reality is . . . i turtle sometimes, but i usually do not (believe me, you don't win 25%ish of fh games by turtling every game, or even half of your games; do the math, eh). it depends on the situation. i like to assess and adapt. it is assuredly not 'laziness.' this one size fit all strategery, and that there is only one way one *should* lux/prosecute war is fairly narrow minded in my estimation, unless you work for certain recent u.s presidents ("smoke 'em out"). as for:

I would prefer that you not spout Sun Tzu quotes and pretend that they're relevant

it comes from a book (you should read one sometime; they are really illuminating). its called the 'art of war', so to say its not relevant to lux is worthy of a hearty lol!! granted it does not jibe with the *western* way of war, coming in with guns blazing, but that is part of the point (believe it or not, i am not a big fan of war, or war games for that matter--ender's game, anyone?--and sometimes perhaps i am trying to symbolically insert myself into the 'us v. them' agon-istic mentality that permeates so much of our thinking in so many different aspects of our lives) . as for things "i would prefer" . . . i would prefer that you leave lux because i just don't see the positive benefit that you add to the community (perhaps you can enlighten us?), but that is not going to happen either. in lux, like life, we often have to tolerate things (and people) that we sometimes do not like. i have always had a soft spot in my heart for old symbi, not so much rhye.

3. 2a is coming from a person (i would say 'player,' but 'forum troll' seems more apropos) whose last game was almost 3 weeks ago on march 1. one thing lux does not need is more snarky forum commentary from non-players who are doing nothing to build the community, only tear others down. old grudges die hard, eh, lux crooner?

4. on that note, when rogue monk posts a funny picture, albeit a metaphorical ad hominem attack, he gets banned from the forum for one month. when sybmi and rhye post non-metaphorical ad hominem attacks (originally in a positive 'congratulations' thread) as well as attack the integrity of the game itself (didn't dollabillz get banned for the same thing, and in a much more clever way?!) . . . heaping more negativity in the fora and the community, they get a split thread and even more attention!!! woe to us, the precedent you set . . .

this seems like a pretty blatant double standard to me. oh worthy creator, were we serious about cleaning up the negativity in this place and space, or do some people get a free pass while others are an open target because of who they are and/or their style of play? i specifically call your attention to the recent repost of rules 1 & 3 from the "top three":

the above rules were developed over the years for our community.

TOP 3:
1. Posts that personally attack or insult members are not allowed. If you feel that somebody has been a bad host or player then you may so say, but refrain from insulting them personally.

2. Any 'hate speech' which attacks or insults a group of people based on their skin color, race, religion, sex, nationality, or sexual orientation is strictly prohibited. It doesn't matter if you are "joking", this will get you banned.

3. These forums do not exist as an outlet for constant/repeated negativity. They are not a place to unnecessarily provoke or fuel arguments, or to contribute random jibberish just for the sake of watching your post count rise. No "trolling" or "griefing" please.

i hereby give myself a self-imposed one month ban from the fora for my admittedly snarky commentary above (to be extended ad inifinitum depending on what happens next), but i do not like being attacked or provoked for no reason other than the fact that somebody does not like my style of play (which, ironically, is precisely the converse of the hostile tactics and comments of others that typically engender even more deleterious responses and consequences).

what the creator/moderators/lliaison choose to do with the rest is up to you . . .

The fact that your lazy strategy works to any extent only shows how broken the game is.

see you at the end of april (unless, of course, i see you in an actual game).

humbly,

m (defending my honor, not so much my 'pride' . . . an overrated human quality)

[Big Will E Style]

While I do agree that nemo turtles a lot, I do not understand why she'd be attacked for this strategy. It wins her games. A lot. I'm not sure why so many people are still around bashing the game and rarely or never playing it? This is a small community and if you want change in what map is being played, be a part of the change and start playing different maps. For all of the people complaining, I think we'd be able to have multiple FH's at one time.

[Rhye]

Damn you Symbi, for winning over the hearts of the masses, while I lie forgotten and alone!

I should probably apologize, at least for my relatively passionate musings. There is no reason for you to ban yourself. I ought to consider that your strategies involve two of the most controversial facets of Lux, namely turtling and aliases. Surely you get enough flack from players less insignificant than myself as it is that I need not fan the flames.

I would like to assure you that I do not dislike you, and it is only your strategy that I find troublesome—and again, I find it troublesome not because you choose to employ it, but rather because it actually works. And I think the "turtle-every-game" is indeed a "lazy" strategy, I do not think you are a "lazy" player for playing it. I'm trying to be "ad stratagem" rather than "ad hominem". If I failed, so be it. Admittedly, it really doesn't matter, I should keep my mouth shut as usual, because fundamental improvements to the game will never be made. And people would rather pointlessly argue about whether "A" was more or less negative than "B" than consider anything worthy of note.

I would like to criticize your snarky comments directed at me, though. They did have the fire necessary for A+ quality snark, but I think they missed the mark just a little bit on harsh accuracy. The one about my Bibliophobia seemed a little bit forced, and you should have sought out more convincing stats about my lack of in-game activity. My last game being 3 weeks ago, I suspect, puts me in the top 25% of common forum users...

On a less apologetic and more serious note, I would like to correct you on the Sun Tzu comment. I still don't think Art of War should apply to Risk, as I said earlier. If it does apply to Lux, then I find that unfortunate, as I mentioned at length in my above post(s).

[Llama LluxaLlot]

Mnemo, there is only one reason that symbi's original post was allowed to stand . You referred to it in your post to the extent that removing it would have been very confusing. We left you with the last word and a Bronx cheer in symbi's general direction. From here forward, now that this is a hard policy, congratulations threads will be watched and split as haranguing occurs.

Two answer your next question, rogue monk's ban was an on the fly decision made by Dustin. It was the last straw in a constant barrage of personal attacks.

Most bans are not on the fly. They are a result of discussion. I have only been "out" in the community since Friday night. It will take some time to develop further protocols and guidelines for mods to keep in mind. I strive to build more consistency in this area.

I personally consider you, Mnemo, (and you and you and you aliases) a boon to the game. Self imposed non participation would make Llamas everywhere Llament their Lloss.

Enjoy your reign as the number one seed. You earned it. Feel free to PM me with any comments or concerns.

- Llama LluxaLlot, the Majestic Moose, Larry the legendary lemming, and everyone else in the magnificent menagerie.

-

[Symbiosis]

Toughen up champ, you're not the first player to ever have your play criticized. Fainting and calling for bans isn't becoming.

[Owned]

Belittling someone because of their playstyle isn't ok, but criticizing a style of play is by all means fair game. What's the point of the Lux forums if we don't talk about the game? I think this conversation has more to add than much of the talk that has been going on the past few months.

If you know me as a player you know I don't like turtling. Turtling is a valid strategy under certain circumstances (obviously the line isn't set in stone), it can extend your life support a few turns or even give you a win from another's mistake. But it does rely on other players to make mistakes for the turtle to profit!

Now for the "lazy" bit. A lazy playstyle can be utilized by a player that is in fact not lazy (and really what does that even mean? ).

I rarely chase and so I do not take weekly games too seriously and I think turtling is more of a factor in placement based tournaments anyways. As such I will stick to turtling in tournaments. In a tournament setting that rewards players more points for a better place will have more turtling and plays for place than regular games (excluding chase games obviously). I find both early turtling and plays for place as, for lack of better descriptors, lame or weak, etc. And many times these two can coincide with one another. This comes from a personal standpoint and I realize that I am much more of a risk taker than a passive player in terms of Lux.

The details discussed below will not be taking mistakes into account. No sound strategy should rely on other's mistakes to profit, yet every sound strategy should take advantage of said mistakes.

When one or multiple players turtle early they bog up the game. Less cashing going on leads to the income overrunning the cards and thus marathoning. However that isn't the part that bothers me the most. Early turtling can easily be utilized to freely place 3rd or 2nd. No one will want to waste armies on a turtle normally, but when a player turtles early they will have more armies than a turtle would normally have. So even more armies are necessary to pop or kill a turtle. This either forces everyone not turtling to cooperate to kill a turtle if they want to place above them or someone to kill the turtle and in turn kill themselves or let the turtle grow and place above some of the active players. I hate seeing a player taking a chance and carding to go out before someone with the 2nd most income cashing on 3 and turtling on 0 cards from round 6. Aka, it sucks watching someone taking the "risk" and playing to win to place below someone who takes the easy way out and not taking the "risk" to win the game. Perhaps this is a flaw in the scoring system or the community in general or maybe it isn't a flaw and I should accept it as proper strategy.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

" fainting ?"
Shall she also be requires to "grow a pair"?

Symbiosis, stop baiting Mnemo. You seem to have run out of valid criticism about game play.