Discussion about Turtling

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kitty on catnip
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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by kitty on catnip » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:28 pm

Owned wrote:This notion would require players well versed in how to deal with turtles and how to cooperate with others in the game when it is beneficial.
Play to win. That's how you deal with turtles. They are not dangerous unless you misclick/path wrong and half kill or attack someone else too much for them to gain a footing.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Big Will E Style » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:58 pm

^^

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by n00less cluebie » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:10 pm

I urge you all to review this discussion on Turtling from the Before time, the Long Long Ago:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18674&p=223867

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Red Beard » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:08 am

Image
Clearly, this is still relevant.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Symbiosis » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:37 am

kitty on catnip wrote:
Owned wrote:This notion would require players well versed in how to deal with turtles and how to cooperate with others in the game when it is beneficial.
Play to win. That's how you deal with turtles. They are not dangerous unless you misclick/path wrong and half kill or attack someone else too much for them to gain a footing.
However, "dealing with turtles" in this way necessarily requires accepting how much they slow down the game. It's people who turtle when they really aren't in danger of being killed, and thereby grind the game to a halt, that is really my point of contention.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Samuel99is back » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:56 pm

The more I play and the more I hate this strategy.Its always the same thing.We let the turtle gorw with sometimes weak income and 50 to 75% of the time the turtle win......And yet its always the same turtle strategy who wins at the end......

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by GFips » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:02 am

Menmo turtles a lot and waits for her chance, but the success supports her tactics. Mnemo turtles with perfection. She plays to win nevertheless.
While usually turtles die early in bio, she usually always manages to survive till the end game. She is perfect in waiting for others faults/mistakes. In games with high card values it is easy to turn the ide with a single kill in a perfect moment.

Usually this only happens because people tend to let turtles keep income and while they concentrate to fight each other, they miss that the turtle also becomes huge again. But als long as she is such successfull and turtling with such a perfection, you cannot blame her for winning so many games. So charming turtles be in power :-)

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Samuel99is back » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:12 am

I have nothing again the people who use the strategy.Its the strategy itself that I have a problem with.When the game was more popular and there were more players chasing,people use to play to win back then .It just changed.And Mnemo deserve the victory and medals.Players just dont see how dangerous a turtle can really be.....

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by The Silken Knot » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:44 am

Image

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Dangerous Beans » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:10 pm

GFips wrote:She is perfect in waiting for others faults/mistakes.
Winning due to others mistakes is not perfect.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Shockandawe » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:16 am

Dangerous Beans wrote:
GFips wrote:She is perfect in waiting for others faults/mistakes.
Winning due to others mistakes is not perfect.
It is when you can consistently put yourself in position to exploit those mistakes.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by n00less cluebie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:13 am

That's my issue with Bio--the optimal strategy is to EXPECT your opponents to blunder; often games have MULTIPLE super-blunders where it looks like NOBODY wants to win.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Dangerous Beans » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:00 am

Shockandawe wrote:
Dangerous Beans wrote:
GFips wrote:She is perfect in waiting for others faults/mistakes.
Winning due to others mistakes is not perfect.
It is when you can consistently put yourself in position to exploit those mistakes.
Dunking the ball on a midget doesn't make you a good basketball player.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Symbiosis » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:47 pm

I would classify turtling as intentionally creating a situation where there are no winning moves, and then counting on other players to decide they'd rather lose than continue the waiting game.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Shockandawe » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:05 pm

Symbiosis wrote:I would classify turtling as intentionally creating a situation where there are no winning moves, and then counting on other players to decide they'd rather lose than continue the waiting game.
A turtle is typically trying to create a situation where there are no losing moves. The choice becomes do I continue carding with the guarantee that I will lose or do I turtle and preserve a small chance to still win. Everyone makes mistakes at all levels. Not to mention the roll of the dice.

The decision to turtle itself seems to be an easy decision for people to make, but you have to be able to position yourself on the board so that when a mistake happens you can take advantage of it.

The same as when you have to position and place yourself properly to make winning kills.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Symbiosis » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:43 pm

I agree that there are players who use turtling that way, and that's the way it should be done. I think there are also players who are not in especially great danger of being killed, or who are among the stronger players on the board, who will turtle for the reason I mentioned in my last post.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Shockandawe » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:10 pm

Symbiosis wrote:I agree that there are players who use turtling that way, and that's the way it should be done. I think there are also players who are not in especially great danger of being killed, or who are among the stronger players on the board, who will turtle for the reason I mentioned in my last post.
and that is largely a result from Bio itself. Due to it's unbalanced nature it can often create stalemates. If you have a decent amount of income and are safe, but can't find a winning move, it can very well be in your best interest to attempt to take away the focus from you.

Let two or three other players fight amongst themselves and then re-enter the fray. If the other players blast themselves into oblivion and you pick up the win from going conservative you have just outplayed them with skill. You have used their aggression against them.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by n00less cluebie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:51 pm

Symbiosis wrote:I agree that there are players who use turtling that way, and that's the way it should be done. I think there are also players who are not in especially great danger of being killed, or who are among the stronger players on the board, who will turtle for the reason I mentioned in my last post.
Indeed, it's the so-called "lazy turtle" that is the real issue. The person in 2nd or 3rd place or God help me, I've seen the STRONGEST player turtle that is most frustrating

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Dangerous Beans » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:17 pm

I agree with n00dles.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Naraku » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:16 am

It's not lazy turtling that is the problem imo, its that there are 3-4 turtles now on monday or tuesday.
Turtling slows the cash values and impedes the game as everyone jealously guards their inc.
Turtles should go play go fish or something else rather than dragging games out for over an hour as 5 people farmathon.
Perhaps dustin could restore the old bio style of 50%? or higher % than the 20?

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by The Silken Knot » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:55 am

Image

That's what we call turtling when I do it, okay?
:smt077

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by n00less cluebie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:51 am

+1

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by AquaRegia » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:10 pm

Naraku wrote:It's not lazy turtling that is the problem imo, its that there are 3-4 turtles now on monday or tuesday.
Turtling slows the cash values and impedes the game as everyone jealously guards their inc.
Turtles should go play go fish or something else rather than dragging games out for over an hour as 5 people farmathon.
Perhaps dustin could restore the old bio style of 50%? or higher % than the 20?
The only real solution to "overturtling" (yes, I'm still annoyed by the misuse of the term) is to use settings that make it less worthwhile.

30 minute game time limits
continent % less than double card % increases

There ARE rooms with better settings... but people don't seem to choose them. I see people posting here complaining about overturtling, yet these same people keep choosing to play in a 20%-10% room where the settings make it a safe and valid strategy. "Well I HAVE to play in the room where the people are, don't I?" I say make a choice to stop acting like lemmings.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Big Will E Style » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:30 pm

To avoid marathons, you need high cards, low income.

Ideal settings would be:

15%^ cards and 10 to 20% income

High income games can help avoid marathons in some cases, but it can also turn it into a stalemate if the same issues of not wanting to hit income arise.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by The Silken Knot » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:22 pm

Are those settings for Bio-Deux, Will? Can we ask dustin to use them?

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by AquaRegia » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:24 pm

There is already a SillySoft Bio room with 15% cards and 20% cont increase. Nobody is ever in it, unless I go there.

There are two full rooms playing with 10% cards and 20% conts right now, probably griping about the "turtles".

:smt017

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Red Beard » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:50 pm

Are we honestly going to say that bio really marathons that much? Because, I remember way more classic marathons back in the day and i know that Rome has had pllleenty. Honestly, if anything, i think most bio rooms move pretty quickly by comparison to older games even though I don't have the data to prove it... And if there is an occasional marathon, then... so? Hell, people used to play 5,5,5 back in the day which is practically MADE to marathon. Marathons have their own subtle art to them. Do I want to play a marathon every game? Hell no! However, I do enjoy the occasional one.

Back to the topic at hand, if Turtling weren't a viable strategy, then people would do it far less often. Almost everyone chooses to turtle at one point or another, because sometimes that's your last option (unless it's some sort of moral ideology that you hold on the matter). It can bump your chances from being virtually nil, to maybe giving you a shot at a win... Especially in bio where there are more income boosts. Sometimes, if you DON'T turtle, you are counting on another player to make a mistake by not seeing an obvious kill.

I always try to play to win (unless i do a tit for tat if someone blows my game, but that's a different matter entirely) and I would say that most people who turtle ARE playing to win. Hell, I am often glad when an especially small player turtles, because it prevents he/she from becoming easy food for another big player. I would also argue that it adds a little more variety to the game and prevents it from being overly formulaic. IE: my lined up target picks up on the fact that I'm going to kill them, thus I have to switch strategies.

Just my 2 cents in a piggy full of coin.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Dangerous Beans » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:40 am

If you have the choice to stay in the game but decide to turtle anyways then that is pretty lame. No one like a cherrypicker on the court.

If you are too lazy to run back and forth every play and instead sit under the basket why are you even playing in the first place?

Pretty similar to voluntary turtling. If you say to yourself "I am going to turtle and hope everyone else forgets about me" instead of mixing it up... then why? Certainly not how I get my kicks. I would love to understand how that derives pleasure.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Shockandawe » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:28 am

You must abide by the strict "Rules of Enjoying Lux" at all times.

Should you have fun in a way not described above you shall be cast out.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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Re: Discussion about Turtling

Post by Samuel99is back » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:12 am

When I decide to turtle in a game its because I dont to be stuck with 4 cards and be easy meat for others or someone try to kill me for my cards and miss or have bad dices.For me when I decide to turtle I dont say to myself...now im trying to win.I say to myself ....ill just hope for the best and wait for someone mistake or bad move.

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