Sexism in Online Gaming.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

Please continue thought on Sexism in Luxtopia or in online gaming in general here. Thank you. Also, I encourage you all to be mindful of personal attacks on individual Luxers.

[Big Will E Style]

As a woman, Llama, maybe you could touch on some of the sexism you have experienced, so we can understand what you've seen? I think as a White Male, I may sometimes not understand a woman or minority's position on why something is offensive and therefore not take it seriously as an offense against someone or a certain group. I also think that sometimes people look to be offended when something was said or done that did not have malice behind the words or actions.

Take Sym's comments in the other thread for example. He used a statement that implies a dramatic woman towards a woman who posted something. I took it as him calling her dramatic. Llama took it as him calling her a woman who can't handle the criticism because she's a woman (or at least that's how I interpreted it - correct me if I'm wrong). I think Sym's intentions probably fell somewhere between our interpretations. However, I was clearly blinded to the sexist undertones of the comment. This is why I think the discussion is important.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

BWE, I am happy to share my experiences. As an overview, I started playing video games as soon as they were invented. Same for computer games, Same for Online games. (same for comic books, Dungeons and Dragons, and other typical geeky "boy" interests.) I am a female of the species. I first played Lux as "Kleef". People assumed I was male. I didn't correct them regularly until I became Llux Llama. Before Llux, I usually played online as a male. When I played as a girl and woman, sexist an misogynistic language were directed at me on a regular basis. I am talking about non-subtle, obvious comments that could not be taken for anything else. I got "special" (softer and more lenient ) treatment only twice that I can remember. The trend for women gamers is overwhelmingly on the side of harassment rather than being treated like a "queen" (a statement in another thread for those just joining us. )

I will leave it there for now. I have other priorities to attend to at the moment. I'll be back.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

Here is one of my early forum posts as "Kleef" from 2007.

Hello there. I expect a certain amount of game related name calling and smack talking. Asshat, N00b, Newb, idiot player or moron, you suck for killing me....etc. That all is ok by me in the scope of a game.

PLEASE

do not call me a Bitch
do not ask me to suck your dick

In response to an innocuous comment I said I was a lesbian. Which leads me to-

do not ask me who is the woman and who is the man in my relationship
do not ask me if I wear a strap on

and the kicker:

do not say things like "I might just have to hit you so it will be like banging you"

or something like that.

Thanks for turning a genderless strategy game into undesired fantasy sex.

That's all, folks.

-Kleef

[Owned]

I am in the same shoes as BWE here. It is hard for me to read into subtle sexist remarks. I do my best to avoid being sexist and as such I expect everyone else to do the same.

[hoodie]

To put it in a different perspective, what we end up seeing as subtle, not *Really* offensive stuff that doesn't happen all that often is a woman's 500th episode of it today. The coin always seems to land on tails, something always seems to come out juuuuuuuuust short of the line... but when it's the 500th time, there's a lot less elasticity in that line. The line may move a little bit towards less patience.

It's not any one instance, as much as the deluge of instances. As guys, we're not bombarded with that stuff, and only see the singular instance.

It's a subject that needs understanding from all sides - but when you start looking for it, when you have friends worn down by it, the traces are absolutely everywhere.

I don't claim perfection in this, I screw up regularly. It's part of the culture we're in, AND we can start to change assumptions and pathways by first bringing it into our consciousness that yes, it's something half of us experience and the other half have to learn to see.

[Symbiosis]

Probably not a good sign if the use of the word "fainting" is enough to touch off this kind of discussion.

[hoodie]

The touch off to this sort of thing is either gonna be something INCREDIBLY blatant from some jerkface, or really subtle from someone that people respect. I think it's less about this instance, and more about an accumulation over time.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

You used "Fainting " in combination with "not becoming". That was a clear indication of a sexist jab to those of us who experience it all the time.

So let me ask you this? Why DID you use a sexist jab, symbiosis?

[Llama LluxaLlot]

In follow up to my post at Kleef,

Most everybody will agree that the comments said to me in that list are over the line. Where the more subtle and exponentially more upsetting sexism comes in is when I complain as a woman about the primary sexist experience.

We get this next kind both from men and from women who trying to prove themselves to the male majority.

"Oh no, she is going to faint"
"Just ignore it. You need to toughen up if you want to play with the boys"
"If it bothers you, go to another game"
"This is the way things are in a war game. "
"I am sorry if you got your feelings hurt, but you took it the wrong way. "

These all have one thing in common. My request for better behavior from others was turned into being blames myself for getting upset. I ended up saying.."oh, it's not that big of a deal...ha ha ha...doesn't really bother me...ha ha ha" so I didn't have to fight a second battle. This is usually what happens when women complain. The "problem" is turned around and put back on us.

Instead of symbiosis being expected to stop personally attacking mnemo, he tried to make the problem her fault for letting it bother her.

The whole thing is a sexist pattern. Very common.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

There are indeed parallels. You are still welcome to point them out. But sexism in online gaming is already a touchy subject. I am making a command decision to keep it separate from other topics. Posting the entire "It's so gay" discussion which is multiple pages in itself could derail this topic.

[Naraku]

I didn't have the chance to read n00less post did it get split to the "its so gay thread" or just erased?

I would also like to say that I think his post should be returned as it was his view on this subject and it also relates to you mentioning your rampant lesbianism in another post you made

[mnemosyne]

if you will suffer me one final post before taking a little time out from the fora, it seems warranted to add a few lines to this thread.

1. there are numerous compelling studies that indicate young women are turned off of games, especially computer and video games, at an early age (despite rare exceptions to the rule, like llama) because they are linear games that favor, as rhye notes, 'math and logic' and have an often pre-ordained conclusion (its one of the reasons i do not particularly like classic; it seemed too much like a set mathematical formula . . . take a continent that only needs to be defended by 2 soldier borders, build a huge satellite in asia, farm china like a big circle jerk, and wait for the time to be right in card turn order to let the killing begin. q.e.d. granted there were little nuances like blocking, or placing a few armies in a protected space, but that was the essence of the game. and you thought turtling was a simplistic strategy, lol!). its one of the related reasons why there are so few women drawn to the *stem* disciplines. in that masculine mode of thinking/acting, sun tzu is not relevant to lux because it is 'not logical,' it 'does not compute,' and it is not the way lux 'should' be conceptualized, or played.

2. linear games geared toward final conclusions and 'winners' and 'losers' are not the only games out there (finite and infinite games is another great book for anyone who is interested). my daughters used to love to play the mary kate and ashley's 'winner's circle' video game (not the best role models, i agree, but i was a lenient parent in some ways). their favorite sub-game allowed them to dress up in various outfits, pick a cool looking pony, and ride around aimlessly in the field. there were some typical winner/loser sub-games (pressure from the video game manufacturers, undoubtedly), but most were not.

3. sexist commentary, not to mention gendered language, in lux, as in life, is real and lamentable. if you wonder why you haven't seen mnemosyne in game play for quite some time, its because she has boycotted play in solidarity with my favorite luxer of all, the silken knot, who made a very reasonable request a couple years back for those in power to create (and enforce!) a gender based language policy (the constant barrage of name-calling, like c&nt, bit¢h, and p%ssy, was growing tiresome, and nothing was being done about it). it was an incredibly reasonable (and just) request, but it fell on deaf ears. so mmemo waits on the sidelines with silken for that pro-active policy to be crafted, implemented, and enforced. the counterargument, as is the case in so many other struggles for gender/religious/race/orientation, etc. equality in the 'real' world, was/is: 'why do we need a gender policy when we have a perfectly good set of rules that applies to all regardless of gender?' similarly, the counterargument has gone, 'why do we need civil rights legislation when the constitution protects everyone,' or 'why do women need the right to vote when their husbands, fathers, brothers can represent their interests perfectly well in the public fora,' or 'why does the glbtq community deserve special status when they can just stfu and *don't ask, don't tell*'?

4. finally, to the heart of the new thread:

Toughen up champ, you're not the first player to ever have your play criticized. Fainting and calling for bans isn't becoming.

i did not find the 'fainting' comment particularly sexist, although it does seem to be attributed to women more than men. the 'becoming' and 'toughen up" comments are more so (because women are perceived to be 'soft' among other things). additionally, one of the masculine requirements of femininity is that women should be 'becoming' (i.e. pleasing to the heterosexual male gaze; sports illustrated swimsuit edition anyone?!). if you knew my age, that would not be a concern, lol. still, symbi carefully couches his passive-aggressive commentary in sufficiently vague ways so he can easily retreat to: "who me? please! 'fainting' and 'becoming' and 'toughen up' are gender neutral" in the same way that donald trump uses sufficiently ambiguous language when he attacks megyn kelly by claiming that she had 'blood coming from her wherever.' his predictable response is that he 'meant' blood coming out of her 'nose.' of course, any serious student of discourse knows that meaning does not exist in the word, nor in the dictionary, nor even in the intention/sender. meaning resides in the audience. and if you use intentionally ambiguous language with sexist overtones to incite an audience given their own sexist predilections, it is pretty obvious what you are doing. oh, yes, let's not call for bans b/c that would be 'unbecoming' . . . instead let's simply 'talk it out' b/c that what you womenfolk like to do . . . all we need to do is let you 'vent' your 'passions' so we can get back to business as usual where logic and rationality reign supreme. as emmeline pankhurst realized in her struggle for woman/women's rights in merry old england, the time for talk has passed, what we need is "deeds not words." deeds, not words, creators, moderators and lliaiasons, in lux as in life!

perhaps we have our own little donald trump of lux. lincoln would be mortified

the shine is starting to wear off . . .

over and out,

m

[Llama LluxaLlot]

I do think that talking things out is necessary for cultural change both in Luxtopia and in the world. Clamping down on behavior alone does not effect change. However JUST talking does not protect players from Harassment. I plan on doing both. Sexist slander will be considered "hate speech" and treated as other "hate speech" in lux with a combination of warnings editing and banning.

Look for a change in the TOS soon.

[kitty on catnip]

Ummmm...

Ladies, don't act like you aren't treated better than the men in lux.

As for 'sexist language' , what are we even talking about? I could argue that a man calling another man a pussy is actually sexist towards males more so than it's sexist towards females. Because it implies a male should be strong and should not whine or cry or be overly sensitive. Now the male is comparing the other male to a female, yes. But this is only derogatory if you think being a weaker sex or more sensitive sex is a bad thing. The fact remains that society in general tells the male population to keep their feelings to themselves and not get overly touchy. This turns men into assholes and dicks because instead of expressing our emotions positively, we express them in caveman style ways of name calling and 'acting tough' rather than being tough.

It's sexist towards males because they are saying you are not the quintessential male. You act more like a woman or a girl. But how is that derogatory towards women/girls? It's derogatory towards men because they are the ones being called names and having their manhood challenged.

The ladies get to flirt and use hearts and get treated very well in online games.

This is a problem with the sexes. Women want to change the language men use. It's one of the reasons why men create brotherhoods such as navy seals or frats.

We are different sexes.

If you want us to use different language than let's start sharing bathrooms too. Let's also not gender specific areas in stores. Let's mix the bras and panties in with the boxers and ties.

In other words, be careful what you wish for and also stop acting like every little thing is 'sexist' - Feminism can't control everything nor should it.

[Llama LluxaLlot]

noodles the clown, I have over moderated you. Please post the link you wanted to. My bad.

[Symbiosis]

I really did not say that much. Really. But then again now I am Donald Trump ergo Hitler, permaban Symbiosis, make lux great again.

[kitty on catnip]

could someone quote , in order, the exact sexist comments symbi used and I will judge for all of lux.

[Symbiosis]

This is what I wrote:

Toughen up champ, you're not the first player to ever have your play criticized. Fainting and calling for bans isn't becoming.

The rest was deleted by Llama LluxaLlot. You do not have free reign to continue your personal attacks on mnemo. There are a number of them already in print. Please reread your past insults if you need to write another round.

[kitty on catnip]

Toughen up champ, you're not the first player to ever have your play criticized. Fainting and calling for bans isn't becoming.

isn't becoming of WHAT!?

[hoodie]

the term "isn't becoming" is an old school term. Imagine it being said by someone who also uses the phrase "I have the vapors, you are so unbecoming!!!"

Essentially it's belittling, really a term of being uncomposed when one should be proper (also in a gendered way). it's not HORRIBLE as these things go, but it's gendered and has struck a nerve. I think it was also a bit of a cherry on the top when there were hurt feelings to start with.

If we ended up talking more about overall sexism in online gaming, rather than pointing to this specific instance, it might be easier for people to make shapes out of this, rather than feeling hunted. Talking about root sources of the problems rather than sprouts can often be effective. Talking about causes will hopefully create shifts, talking about effects might just make more arguments.

My $5.

[kitty on catnip]

lol yes hoodie I know what the phrase means, I was just trying to poke the cornered cat so to speak.

[guillerme]

I can't sleep. I have a woman crossed between the eyelids. If I could, I would tell her go; but I have a woman stuck in the throat.

Eduardo Galeano
Phrases "The Book of Embraces" (1989)

Come on guys, enjoy her.

[kitty on catnip]

This is usually what happens when women complain. The "problem" is turned around and put back on us.

Or maybe it's because what you are complaining about is so trivial that it should be non existent?

There is a reason why the word 'nag' was created.

Wives nag husbands. This is universally true.

Feminists need to grow a thicker skin in this world because not everything said or done to them is sexist.

Being born with a vagina does not give you a free pass to force everyone else to speak and act exactly as you want them to speak and act.

[hoodie]

I think I'm done for the day. Good luck everyone. I suggest less catnip, kitty.

[kitty on catnip]

I suggest less catnip, kitty.

Derogatory towards the feline species for assuming when we are voicing an opinion or acting crazy crazy it is because we are cats and must be on catnip

Sigh.

Feline equality will never come to fruition.

[Deep Blue]

I love being able to call women sluts and guys dicks. I thought that sexism was about discrimination. Unfair advantages and stuff.
Cry me a river. Is that sexist?

[Llama LluxaLlot]

This is usually what happens when women complain. The "problem" is turned around and put back on us.

Or maybe it's because what you are complaining about is so trivial that it should be non existent?

There is a reason why the word 'nag' was created.

Wives nag husbands. This is universally true.

Feminists need to grow a thicker skin in this world because not everything said or done to them is sexist.

Being born with a vagina does not give you a free pass to force everyone else to speak and act exactly as you want them to speak and act.

Kitty, which of the statement said to "Kleef" were trivial? Being born with a penis does not entitle you to stick it where ever you please. If someone calls me a Cunt in a game, tells me to suck their dick, and references rape I am going to ban them.

Also , that feline equality line made me laugh. It was really funny.

[kitty on catnip]

It's not any one instance, as much as the deluge of instances. As guys, we're not bombarded with that stuff, and only see the singular instance.

No? How about every popular cartoon on tv exemplifying the husband as the dumbass dolt who drinks beer and sits on the sofa all day long? (Do I really need to start listing them?)

How about when mass murders happen in movie theaters and the young hysterical girls are crying about how their boyfriends body protected them but say nothing about how they didn't deserve it just because they were born with a vagina?

How much do you hear about testicular cancer? Not much, huh. But breast cancer awareness....watch out for those parades when you want to drive your car 5 minutes to pick up that fast food spicy chicken sandwich.

What about hearing about how the male to female inmate gender percentages are 93% to 7%?

What about hearing too many times how being a stay at home mother is hard work when there are exponentially more men than women in the military dying for our freedoms and firefighters and policemen keeping us safe? Not to mention staying at home to play with a few children seems like a total fucking dream job for most working class people.

What about the fact that there are vastly more homeless men than there are women?

What about the fact that we listen to women complaining day in and day out about sex inequality and how we men don't care to listen to the female voices but nobody ever cares to mention the few and many more things that could be demonstrated as sexist in the females favors?

You punch us and we complain? We are just being little sissies and need to grow a pair.

We make the egregious mistake to slap you after finding out you filed for a divorce after calling us cheaters and a bad father when in fact we were the ones working to put food on the table and you were the one going out to Monday night salsa nights with your new found 'male friend'. We go to jail.

If we cheat on you it's not because you stopped putting out or you nagged us too much or you let yourselves go - It's because we are assholes

I could keep going.

I suspect none of you to care about any of these things because society has programmed us all to not care when it's the other way around.

[kitty on catnip]

Kitty, which of the statement said to "Kleef" were trivial? Being born with a penis does not entitle you to stick it where ever you please. If someone calls me a Cunt in a game, tells me to suck their dick, and references rape I am going to ban them.

These should get warnings and rightfully so - Not because they are sexist but because they are vulgar.

These comments could also be made to a male by a male.

Just because they were made to YOU, does NOT make them sexist.

Men are called cunts too. WhirlPlaid told para to suck his dick once. Rape has been a point of conversation since the caveman era.

Keep going Llama, you might find sexism if you spread your witch hunt wide enough