Bots 1st "rule"?

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Pars
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Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Pars » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:14 am

I was away for 5 years, back then "bots 1st" was not even mentioned by players.
Once in a while a player would ask for it but the other players made sure 2 let him/her know that's not how they play.

Now that I'm back and playing a few games now and then I have seen ppl getting angry if you kill em before the bots.
Some even go emotional and crazy about it.
Some player seems to think that they can hold a lot of income and you are not allowed to hit or kill them because there are bots alive in the game.
For me this is a silly and weak "rule", why would any player let another player hold a lot of income just because there are bots in the game?

When I join a game I have 5 opponents, bots and humans are both opponents.
I will kill any opponent if it is a good- or winning move, and you should do that as well, I don't mind at all.
This has been debated earlier: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5951&hilit=bots+1st

Taken from that thread:
I quote:
Dustin: "It rewards poor play, while forcing good players to de-optimize their strategies. I wanted to officially say that the creator is against "bots first" in principal"

Preacherman: "I have also never played bots first and never will, it is a pussy way to play the game"

Para: Sure, there are some malcontents that will throw a fit, if you don't go outta your way to ruin of your own chances of winning, 'cause they can't stand the thought of losing a few magical internet points. But you know what? Screw 'em. Use the mute command. If they begin targeting you, then report them.

Today I was game with lippet, Rich Girl and 3 bots. I killed a bot, then lippet and 2 turns later won the game, my move was a winning move.
lippet did not like it and Rich Girl got mad, really mad.
Rich girl said that the hosts a while back had this rule "bots first".
I asked if it was private hosts or Dustin's, first she said para and when I answered her that it surprises me because para was against it back in time she changed her mind and said it was Dustin's. That also surprises me, because I have never seen that.
Shortly after she lost self control, killed upeng before a bot and blamed me for it, because she was frustrated and wanted to show how wrong it is to kill humans first. I had guest out because she was wating for me to play so she could give back.
I will post all chat after this so you can read for your self.


Rich Girl has joined ✱
✱ Rich Girl is now controlling player Rich Girl ✱
█ Rich Girl: .
█ Rich Girl: didi i skip a round
█ lippet: yep
█ Rich Girl: this game need new dice
✱ k-OS was eliminated by Pars-Hat in round 5 ✱
█ lippet: ty !!!
█ lippet: wow
✱ lippet was eliminated by Pars-Hat in round 5 ✱
✱ Pars-Hat ran out of turn time! ✱
✱ Rich Girl was eliminated by Lux Luthor in round 5 ✱
Rich Girl: no b o t first?
█ Pars-Hat: no bot rule
lippet: it seems no !!!
lippet: no rules but we used to ....
Rich Girl: usualy human alweys play b o t first
lippet: only fair player Rich Girl
✱ Game number: 1957371 — Game length: 6.6 minutes ✱ ( End of game, I won)
Rich Girl: or u would have not hold me africa and eu defending with nothing
Pars-Hat: we can talk about this bot 1st
lippet: sry Rich Girl, can't play because human first ...
█ Rich Girl: just em and u lipp
█ Rich Girl: no human first
Pars-Hat: bots are opponets like humans, only weak player asks for bots first
lippet: right pars, you play like bot
Pars-Hat: and Im not sitting here and watch humans try to hold all Na and sa with like 12 men
Pars-Hat: because of bots first
█ Rich Girl: im not sayng they are not but if all player play bot first then u understarnd that if u only one not caing about bot first u got advantage
Pars-Hat: start a debate in forums about it lippet
█ Rich Girl: becaue i dont kill u even if i can if thers a bot
Pars-Hat: I dont mind if u kill me and win rich girl
lippet: np Pars-Hat, gg
Pars-Hat: before bots
Pars-Hat: u want bots first because of raw lippet, I have never chased, dont care about raw
█ Rich Girl: well i find out how u play so i will play like taht too with u
Pars-Hat: yes, if u can kill me and win, go for it
Pars-Hat: asking for bots forst is weak and childish
Pars-Hat: Classic player laughed about this bots first thing, its silly, no good reason for it
█ Rich Girl: i agree with that
█ Rich Girl: but once all player agreed on that rule why not follow it
Pars-Hat: RC, there is no rule
Pars-Hat: thats the thing
█ Rich Girl: no written rule
Pars-Hat: exatcly
█ Rich Girl: and sicne 1 year ago in every room was written bot first rules
Pars-Hat: made up rule for ppl scared of raw
Pars-Hat: I dont see a bot firts rule in any room dec
Pars-Hat: des*
█ Rich Girl: thre was
Pars-Hat: private hosts or dustins?
Rich Girl: was paranoia
Rich Girl: rooms
Rich Girl: and others i dont remember now
Pars-Hat: Im supsrised of that, he was against bots first back in time
█ Rich Girl: maeby dustin i dont know
Pars-Hat: as I said, if u can kill me before a bot and its a winning move, go for it, I dont mind at all
✱ upeng2005 has joined ✱
█ Rich Girl: guest in
█ Rich Girl: lièèet
█ Rich Girl: lippet
█ Rich Girl: no b o t first room
█ Rich Girl: pars-hat rules
Pars-Hat: take it easy RG, dont be annoying
█ Rich Girl: gg
upeng2005: you kill me in FE and now take me out before the bots.. OK
upeng2005: now how you are playing
█ Rich Girl: new rules upeng
█ Rich Girl: if u can kill me before a bot and its a winning move, go for it
upeng2005: does look like your move was a winning MOVE
upeng2005: THATS OK.. I KNOW HOW TO PLAY
█ Rich Girl: i was playing b o t first and got fucked upeng nothing personal i just want someone else had my feeling
█ Rich Girl: they said thers no written rule
█ upeng2005: YOU KILLED ME IN fe FIRST
█ upeng2005: SO BE IT
█ Rich Girl: i know upeng
█ Rich Girl: i dont like to play like that
█ Rich Girl: hate to play human first
█ upeng2005: BUT YOU DID
█ Rich Girl: but tahts how people play this time
█ Rich Girl: trying to get the feeling
█ Rich Girl: i was just frustated
█ upeng2005: ME TOO
█ Rich Girl: that people play human first
█ Rich Girl: when we all play bo t first
█ Rich Girl: i just awanted to shoe pars hat how bad it is to play human first
█ Rich Girl: and u where the canditìdate
█ upeng2005: WEL YOU AR THIS GAME
█ Rich Girl: nothing personal
█ Rich Girl: i will give u this game upeng
✱ Rich Girl was eliminated by upeng2005 in round 5 ✱
Rich Girl: gg
Rich Girl: sry for last game
Rich Girl: SEEEEE PARS-HAT
Rich Girl: THATS HOW U WANT PEOPLE TO PLAY
█ upeng2005: SO WE READY TO DO BOTS FIRST?
█ Rich Girl: yup
█ Rich Girl: pars-hat where are u ?


This is what happens when you make up rules that don't exist and expects/demands ppl to follow them.
Read room description, follow that. If you join a game it's your own decision, no one is forcing you and don't blame other for raw-lost because of you got killed before bots.

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nimrod7
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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by nimrod7 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:26 am

Bots first is up to the host or if the players agree. If memory serves, para was always against bots first.

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GFips
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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by GFips » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:11 pm

Hi Pars,

i do not want to start another discussion about wheather bots first is good or bad (both sides have many supporters here providing vaild aspects and there is no strict right or wrong IMHO), but concerning the rules let me tell you:

Hosts a are free to host "bots first" or "not bots first". A hint in the description would be usefull if the host wants people to play "bots first".
In the case the host gives the rule "bots first" all players in that host should follow that rule (otherwise it would be unfair to other players following the rule). You should also watch the room description wheather it is a strict bots first rule or not. But even playing "bots first" does not mean, you must not pop others income also to balance the game

There is actually no "bots first" rule in the official sillysoft hosts. As long as there is no rule in the description i would assume the host is NOT bots first. So killing a bot before a human ist definitly not against the rule. But you should consider, that it is a common gentlemen agreement of many players here to try to kill a bot before humans as long as it is still suitable and you still play to win (i myself would e.g. always try to kill a bot first as long as i have the choice whom to kill first without minimizing my chance to win too much). So I can understand people getting mad, if a player kills in one turn e.g. the human first and then the bot while he could do easily the other way round without any cons.

Maybe the best way is to talk with the other players before and let them know, you don't play bots first. As long as you do not asshat others i think nobody should get angry. Most important thing in my oppinion is just to clear such things when the game starts so that nobody can complain afterwards.


2 links to Prior discussions about "bots first":
http://www.sillysoft.net/forums/viewtop ... st#p319624
http://www.sillysoft.net/forums/viewtop ... bots+first

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Pars
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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Pars » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:05 pm

GFips wrote:Hi Pars,

i do not want to start another discussion about wheather bots first is good or bad..
I did not start this thread to debate if its good or bad to have the rule. I started so ppl will follow rules and not demand other to follow unwritten rules.
GFips wrote: Maybe the best way is to talk with the other players before and let them know, you don't play bots first.
This is were you go wrong Gfrips, do you actually thinks this is necessary or even possible?
Do I have to tell everybody in every game I participate that I follow rules, that I have read room description and that I don't play bots because of room description allows me to do so?
Should I also get a reply from every player in the game so they know how I play?

This is wrong Gfips, you are putting the responsibility on a player that follows the rules, just because some players gets mad.
What every player should do is to follow sillysoft rules and read room description.
There is absolutely no need to tell everybody that you play by the rules just because other don't like it.

Your advice as mod should be that every player reads the room description follow the rules and not demanding other to follow unwritten rules.

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by n00less cluebie » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:47 pm

Always worthwhile to find out what assumptions other players have before playing. Remember a majority of players never check the forums so have never even HEARD of these discussions. If a large swath of players are playing "bots first" it's a good idea to tell them in advance if you plan not to. Not because "you have to" or because "it's a rule" but rather for goodwill, and to keeps opps from getting pissed off and targeting you.

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Red Beard » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:01 pm

For the record, paras rooms always had "never bots first" in the actual game description.

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GFips
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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by GFips » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:08 pm

thanks N00 - that was exactly what i meant to express.
It is not a must, but talking with each other sometimes helps to avoid disappointments because of different expectations (independent of any rules).

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Pars » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:03 pm

Gfips and n00, I will explain why what you guys say is not reasonable but only beautiful words here in the forum.
Let's say that we do what you guys think is a good idea.
This mean every player have to say their intention about how they want to play, this would mean players that want to play bots 1st must inform other
and those who do not want to play bots first must also inform about it. And this would have to be done every game, every time you want to play(in a bot game).

Example:
Pars: I dont play bots 1st
Player2: I play bots first
Player3: Bots 1st for me 2
Player4: Im with Pars, not bots first
Player5(bot)
Player6(bot

So, what does that give us?
Only confusion, disagreement and eventually angry players.
Why are you guys complicating things?

Me as player have do to 2 things when I want to play online.
1.Follow Sillysoft rules
2.Follow room description/rules

That's all you need to do 2 keep it simple.
Read the rules and follow room description.

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Rhye » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:18 pm

Don't ever play bots first unless you're in one of Aquaregia's rooms and he's there to moderate you. And in that case, guest out.

People will always whine when you kill them before you kill a bot, but don't let that stop you. Deafen yourself to the world, and be proud of it.

So long as you do not asshat and you are killing for a profit you can do no wrong, regardless of what the more spongy of our community would tell you.

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by n00less cluebie » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:25 pm

If one person is not playing bots first you guarantee ALL don't play bots first. Just a helpful warning:
"Hey guys: FYI, I don't play the bots first shit--you have been warned" should be enough

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by GFips » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:58 pm

you missunderstood me, Pars. I even mostly agree.
As long as there is no room description telling you to play bots first, you certainly do not have to play this way.
What i and probably N00 meant: If I enter a room and see the other players play clearly bots first, then i personally would prefer to tell them before the next game something like "i don't play bots first. Just want to let you know". If the others don't want to accept this, you can still decide if you want to play bots first for the "sake of peace" or play it not bots first nevertheless (the rule is on your side then, but you might risk that they guest out and will even get tougher to get a FH running). So i just think that ít is sometimes (but not always) easier/more suitable to find a consense in the game instead of insisting just on rules.

Well said Rhye: "So long as you do not asshat and you are killing for a profit you can do no wrong" :smt023 Play honest, but play to win!

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by AquaRegia » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:47 pm

Pars wrote:I was away for 5 years, back then "bots 1st" was not even mentioned by players.
Once in a while a player would ask for it but the other players made sure 2 let him/her know that's not how they play.
Just for the record, bots 1st has been actively debated ever since I joined the community in 2005.

I agree that "no bots 1st" is the official Sillysoft position, and thus there is no need to declare that you are playing humans first in a room with no stated rules. It is also true that as new players join, they have no idea about such things, and are sometimes actively disinterested.

I've learned that it's a poor decision to expect anyone else to play bots 1st in any rooms but my own... and sometimes not even then. Thus, I generally avoid non-FH games. I don't like "humans first", and before any one says "NOT bots first ≠ humans first"... in many cases, they BECOME effectively equivalent. Once someone kills a human before a bot, everyone realizes that kneecapping their human opponents early is good strategy, and bots start winning games. I simply don't believe there are players who honestly don't notice whether an opponent is human or not. We all treat humans differently than bots.

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Bean » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:51 pm

I don't like it much, but I generally just play bots first up to a point so I don't have to deal with angry players and have a better chance at a full house. I don't care too much about winning with bots anyway.

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Pars » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:06 am

AquaRegia wrote: I agree that "no bots 1st" is the official Sillysoft position, and thus there is no need to declare that you are playing humans first in a room with no stated rules.
That's what I'm trying to say, should be no need to declare that I'm playing by the rules and read the room description.
AquaRegia wrote: I've learned that it's a poor decision to expect anyone else to play bots 1st in any rooms but my own...
Spot on, no player should expect that anyone else wants to play their unwritten rules. It would get really messy if we had a room with all kind of unwritten rules.

Keep it simple
1.Follow sillysoft rules
2.Follow room description
3. Don't expect anyone to follow your unwritten rules

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by kitty on catnip » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:52 am

oh for fucks sake.

Preacherman: "I have also never played bots first and never will, it is a pussy way to play the game"

/end thread

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by kitty on catnip » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:58 am

Rhye wrote:Don't ever play bots first unless you're in one of Aquaregia's rooms and he's there to moderate you. And in that case, guest out.
:smt044 :smt044 :smt044

Ziiiiiiiiiinnnnnggg

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Baden » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:13 pm

A typical scene lately. A well known player enters my room. No bots rule. I try however to take out bots 1st. But unfortunately he gets almost killed by the bot and survives with 1 army and 5 cards. I take him out in next turn and win. He calls me ****** (using the whole repertoire). I answer: If I would not have taken him out the bot would have done for sure. His answer (still ranting): "I don't play for raw".

Such guys claim for a bots 1st if they are losing. If they are winning any rule fits.

I don't host with bots 1st rule. But sometimes it may make sense to agree on the rule after the game started.

An example: You enter Dustins classic room. Strong bots and reaper are there. You are alone with a noob in the room. I think it is legal and useful to tell him that he should try to weaken the bots (and especially Reaper) 1st instead of attacking the only other human player 1st before he dies for sure as 2nd.

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Re: Bots 1st "rule"?

Post by Dangerous Beans » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:49 pm

2-player games are another ball game.

I prefer to let people think I am playing bots first, I take a certain pleasure out of watching them squeal after I card kill them and crush their vision of the game. Of course, it also provides a tactical advantage if a foolish opponent assumes you are playing bots first because he himself wants to.

If you want the people in the game to play bots first, you better let them know and ask them if they wish to do so, otherwise you can't blame anyone because of your (baseless) assumptions.

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