The moderation this past Sunday...

Game of universal domination. New dice available free upon request.
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RogueMonk
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The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by RogueMonk » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:34 pm

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Last edited by RogueMonk on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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George874
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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by George874 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:34 am

There was "NO" moderation this past Sunday.

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The Silken Knot
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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by The Silken Knot » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:41 pm

G, my lovely darling, there is a difference between NO moderation and self-serving moderation. It's always going to be difficult when the only mod is also chasing... very, very tricky to keep your self-interest completely at bay.

:smt049

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GFips
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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by GFips » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:54 am

The Silken Knot wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:41 pm
It's always going to be difficult when the only mod is also chasing
I fully agree with this. It is a bad situation when you chase yourself and have to mod - this is really a damn bad feeeling. I myself had a very tough weekend (sports accident in real life; angle broken + complex ligaments rupture), played some games and suddenly found myself in the chase involeved. My intention was to play some games and have fun that evening - but the evening (i am in european time zone) continued to be hell rather. Murphys Law always tells you that there is modding needed when you just want to enjoy some games as player. Unfortunately there was no other mod present at that moment to judge completely uninvolved.

To give everybody some transparancy of what happened that chase:
After a break caring my leg I came back before the reset and we really had some great games going on. In the last game before the reset, George was 1 point in front of me. George took Canada and protected it with 1. He moved his men out of RUS and told Controleola who was in US: "please don't asshat me in CAN. I left RUS for you". Controleola hit George nevertheless that turn (telling that he won’t let "hold weak protected income"). As taking US was already costly for George his game was ruined. Chessarrayxp (maybe as a result, else it would be a comparable move but even over several turns) was hitting my only FE income from now on every turn and so George finally ended 6th and I ended up "luckily" 5th in that game, while Controleola won this game. Unfortunately that decided the chase to me. Not at all they way I want to win a week.
It was a strange move by Controleola as it decided the chase. George was complaining already over the day, that Controleola would target him (but none of the other involved players did really confirm it to me when i asked them and i have not watched that games myself).
So directly after the game I handed out George a weekly 1st place medal as consequence of the situation and addressed the fact to other mods in the modlounge for further discussion. I told him that everything else will be under investigation afterwards behind the scenes.

I personaly think it was an unsportsmen move of Controleola and it was unfair versus George as he knew George was in the chase for the first place (maybe a very little bit comparable situaton as when in formula one other drivers are involved in the fight about the race win). On the other hand Controleola was also in the top 10 and fighting for places. I asked if all others agree with a restart, but beside George no one answered with a yes. Claudiu was also in the chase and fighting for a medal. So I decided to not restart that game and handed out George a weekly 1st place medal instead, as i thought this would be fair. It was obviously an unsportsmen move, but i don’t think that single move was really against the rules. Controleola justified that move with aggressiv play (and to be honest it was rewarded as he won this game).

Nevertheless there will be further investigations about other actions of Controleola in previous games. Targeting another player over several games is strictly forbidden and will take consequences in case. There were reports about him and if other players will confirm that, it will lead to a penalty. But that long it is still „in dubio pro reo“. I am strictly against a rapid prejudgement just because a player has an history of previous asshating. I may remember, it is you TSK, who even requests an amnesty for this players restrictions of hosting (telling me that this player was treated unfair in past) - but now you attack me that i did not immidiatly suspend him for a game you did not even watch yourself?

I am personally really sorry, that game moderation is actually not that perfect and often too slow in actions. Some mods (me included) do not always find the time needed. Some mods seem not to be present at the moment. But we all have a real life too and do this as volunteers. We are humans - so don't be to harsh with us. With PJB Dustin has established another mod with fresh blood for a betterment of the situation.

I am sorry for you George what happened to you that day. I really did not want to win the chase that way. I can fully understand that you are upset about Controleolas action. But it is also strange that the most crying people are people who were not even directly involved themself.

In addition I think there are many many other problems that needed also to be discussed (e.g. place killing in chase games, restarting of FH games when a player has left and so on. many more things). I encourage you all to help the mod squad so that everybody can have fun with this great game.

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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by RogueMonk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:28 pm

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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by RogueMonk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:30 pm

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Last edited by RogueMonk on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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GFips
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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by GFips » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:35 am

Very nice Selfie, Rogue :smt023.

But about your serious part of the post:
Yes Controleola restarted a FH game after a player left in turn 1 (it was after the reset and another player requested a restart)
I personaly am strictly against restarting a FH game just because of a player left. But there is no rule against that.
This was in discussion with former and actual mods in the mod lounge and the last result was, that the guest host can decide whithin the situation wheather to restart. While i do not support this (as it would reward players leaving because of bad starting positions) there are also valid arguments for a restart, e.g. no rs would mean some games would go forward with a bot while other guests are waiting (so it often kills a FH room when the waiting guests leave as consequence).

While i am not lucky with that situation, it is actually definitly not a forbidden action to restart for the guest host. As netiquette I would expect the guest hosts to ask the others Players before a restart at least, but what is a netiquette nowerdays?

Thats why I said, this point should be discussed and IMHO there should be a clear rule, when to restart and when not. It is not satisfying when the guest host can decide this. This is discussed since years and probably there is no strict wrong or right, but there should be a clear rule at least. Dustin could easily prevent all restarts of FH games again, but he won't as long as there is no clear majority oppinion for either side.
RogueMonk wrote:Like, the game couldn't even have been restarted. Wowsers.
After the guest host already restarted of a 5 human FH game you suggested a further restart of a FH game with 6 humans as consequence? Great idea! :panic: I should add that option to the poll ?

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Big Will E Style
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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by Big Will E Style » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:36 pm

You handed out a first place medal to George in a game the guy who supposedly asshatted him won? That's ridiculous, especially for someone like George who is an equivalent asshat to Control. Fips - impartiality doesn't mean rewarding crybabies.

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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by Red Beard » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:59 pm

GFips wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:54 am
The Silken Knot wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:41 pm
It's always going to be difficult when the only mod is also chasing
I fully agree with this. It is a bad situation when you chase yourself and have to mod - this is really a damn bad feeeling. I myself had a very tough weekend (sports accident in real life; angle broken + complex ligaments rupture), played some games and suddenly found myself in the chase involeved. My intention was to play some games and have fun that evening - but the evening (i am in european time zone) continued to be hell rather. Murphys Law always tells you that there is modding needed when you just want to enjoy some games as player. Unfortunately there was no other mod present at that moment to judge completely uninvolved.

To give everybody some transparancy of what happened that chase:
After a break caring my leg I came back before the reset and we really had some great games going on. In the last game before the reset, George was 1 point in front of me. George took Canada and protected it with 1. He moved his men out of RUS and told Controleola who was in US: "please don't asshat me in CAN. I left RUS for you". Controleola hit George nevertheless that turn (telling that he won’t let "hold weak protected income"). As taking US was already costly for George his game was ruined. Chessarrayxp (maybe as a result, else it would be a comparable move but even over several turns) was hitting my only FE income from now on every turn and so George finally ended 6th and I ended up "luckily" 5th in that game, while Controleola won this game. Unfortunately that decided the chase to me. Not at all they way I want to win a week.
It was a strange move by Controleola as it decided the chase. George was complaining already over the day, that Controleola would target him (but none of the other involved players did really confirm it to me when i asked them and i have not watched that games myself).
So directly after the game I handed out George a weekly 1st place medal as consequence of the situation and addressed the fact to other mods in the modlounge for further discussion. I told him that everything else will be under investigation afterwards behind the scenes.

I personaly think it was an unsportsmen move of Controleola and it was unfair versus George as he knew George was in the chase for the first place (maybe a very little bit comparable situaton as when in formula one other drivers are involved in the fight about the race win). On the other hand Controleola was also in the top 10 and fighting for places. I asked if all others agree with a restart, but beside George no one answered with a yes. Claudiu was also in the chase and fighting for a medal. So I decided to not restart that game and handed out George a weekly 1st place medal instead, as i thought this would be fair. It was obviously an unsportsmen move, but i don’t think that single move was really against the rules. Controleola justified that move with aggressiv play (and to be honest it was rewarded as he won this game).

Nevertheless there will be further investigations about other actions of Controleola in previous games. Targeting another player over several games is strictly forbidden and will take consequences in case. There were reports about him and if other players will confirm that, it will lead to a penalty. But that long it is still „in dubio pro reo“. I am strictly against a rapid prejudgement just because a player has an history of previous asshating. I may remember, it is you TSK, who even requests an amnesty for this players restrictions of hosting (telling me that this player was treated unfair in past) - but now you attack me that i did not immidiatly suspend him for a game you did not even watch yourself?

I am personally really sorry, that game moderation is actually not that perfect and often too slow in actions. Some mods (me included) do not always find the time needed. Some mods seem not to be present at the moment. But we all have a real life too and do this as volunteers. We are humans - so don't be to harsh with us. With PJB Dustin has established another mod with fresh blood for a betterment of the situation.

I am sorry for you George what happened to you that day. I really did not want to win the chase that way. I can fully understand that you are upset about Controleolas action. But it is also strange that the most crying people are people who were not even directly involved themself.

In addition I think there are many many other problems that needed also to be discussed (e.g. place killing in chase games, restarting of FH games when a player has left and so on. many more things). I encourage you all to help the mod squad so that everybody can have fun with this great game.
If the game was as you described above, I don't really understand what the issue is. If controleola had made a move that had spent a lot of armies, strategically hurt himself, or put himself at risk of losing the game simply to go after george, this would be a different story. Did any of those things happen? Maybe I am missing something in this equation.

From what I see described, controleola hit a very weak border (1's are always questionable... now 2's...?) and ended up winning the game. Back in the day, hitting a 1 border was often a standard and even for years after that people who tapped a 1 border were just considered to be "old school". And clearly it worked well enough to weaken George (who might have been a contender for winning later if allowed to rebuild, he is a good player after all) and allowed Controleola to win the game. Even in games where I have been severely asshatted, if the asshatter in question ends up winning, then I don't really feel like I have much to be upset about other than getting my tail whipped. Ultimately, controleola's move was part of a winning strategy for that game, even if it was messy.

Maybe controleola had been targeting George all day. Maybe controleola knew that putting his finger on the scale here was enough to give George a 2nd place. But if your winning or losing a chase (or any game really) depends upon your holding a border of 1, then I think you have to admit that your ship was half sunk already. If that is the action you are taking issue with, then perhaps you should reconsider the things that are making you mad and whether or not your anger is actually justified. I see a lot of "unsportsmanlike" moves in bio almost daily (when I play) and getting upset and threatening over actions like that rarely does more than fuel the fire. But no one seems to mind so long as those unsportsmanlike moves work in their favor or the favor of someone they like.

In the end, from what is described above, I also don't understand why people are upset with GFips specifically or exactly how they would want him to handle this situation differently. If anyone wanted to venture to clear that up in this thread, it would be appreciated. Do people think that controleola should have been suspended due to issues with previous actions he made that day? Was it really this one game that people were upset about? These are not questions asked as bait, I am really wondering what people would have wanted him to do. Situations like this tend to be pretty nuanced and have a lot of opposing perspectives from multiple players and often (from what I've seen, even from myself) can involve players continuously instigating each other after one foul move. What is the course of action that people were hoping for in this situation?

GFips, as GFips often does, made a motion of self sacrifice to give up his 1st place medal in a game where it doesn't seem like he did anything wrong (from what is described at least). If GFips had just been a normal player in that game, instead of having a big "mod" target on his back, I can't imagine that anyone would be taking issue. From what I've heard from a few vocal parties here, mods can't seem to do anything right. Either they are cast as being too domineering or they aren't punishing people enough and there seems to be little room in between. More often it seems to depend on whether or not someone simply likes the person who is claiming to be wronged or whether someone doesn't like the person portrayed as the aggressor.

To that end, throwing my own 2 cents on the scales, I have to say that GFips rides that line pretty stinkin' well. For all of the mods that are here now and the past, wouldn't you agree?

Does he screw up on occasion? Sure, the dude is human and is volunteering to make challenging decisions that rarely are positively reinforced by the community he is trying to serve. More often mods are criticized by one person or another no matter what they do. Rarely are there situations where there is a clear " :smt049 :smt049 right :smt049 :smt049 " solution that leaves everyone feeling satisfied. He's doing this for the most part, simply because he cares about this community and wants it to continue existing. So can we make an effort to stop trying to alienate the good ones here? We've all been playing this game together for a long time and our community is continuing to shrink more and more. Do these sorts of arguments and barbed comments really do anything to serve the meager community that we have left here? I get pointing it out when people misstep, but can we at least keep it constructive and specific? Otherwise, what is the objective; to feel justified or to come to a mutual agreement with each other? Which of these two options do you feel serves the community as a whole (or at least the ashes of what it was).

Lastly a post script. Thanks GFips, for putting up with my own gripes and stinky behavior here from time to time, which I know happens. Thanks for continuing to try to do the right thing, even when it means throwing yourself under the bus. Even if you did fuck up here and elsewhere, I still think you're doing a pretty bang up job on the whole. Keep on doing your thing duder.

-Matt

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Red Beard
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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by Red Beard » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:23 am

I stand corrected by someone under the tag "noname" in that GFips didn't give up his medal, but awarded George one as well. However, my sentiment for the rest remains the same. If anyone else sees any other inaccuracies in the above, please do feel free to point them out.
-Matt

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Re: The moderation this past Sunday...

Post by Baden » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:47 pm

I did not watch the game and can't judge. But one thing is for sure: "Controleola" is an extremely nasty player and an unfair backstabber. I met many nasty players in my long career. But few of them were permanently nasty like Controleola. I simply boycott any game with him meanwhile.

He is not a noob and was warned many times. Is this guy completely ineducable?

Just a proposal for the mods based on the fact that Controleola has made only eight posts in the Forum during his whole career since 2008.

Force him to comment on his behavior here in the forum. He may defend himself or start a discussion. Eventually he might excuse himself. Perhaps we misunderstood him so far? Force him to argue with open visor here.

If he refuses that you may ban him again or send him a warning.

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