Pi, here's my 'Bush Theory'

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Preacherman
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Post by Preacherman » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:28 pm

Firstly Kyle, visiting England is not knowing other places and cultures. I am ashamed to admit it but as far as I am concerned, the UK is the 51st state. Secondly, I was referring to the general gun culture that the US has, not any specific race/creed. Gangsters and drug dealers do not qualify as 'culture' in my book, sorry. You want to know Chinese culture, you spend a few years in China, you don't visit Hawaii. Otherwise you are quite right - the US is a timebomb waiting to explode as far as racism is concerned, and other countries are not a whole lot different. Sad fact of life.

You have to understand something - your point of view is spoon fed to you by your government and your media, like it or not. You are raised and educated in a country that has brainwashed you into believing that your so-called democracy and your so-called freedom of speech is constantly under threat from someone. If there is no real enemy, one will be invented for you. The Taliban? This is what the Wall Street Journal said about the Taliban as recently as 1996 (around the time Clinton administration officials and oil company executives were entertaining Taliban leaders in Washington and Texas) - "The Taliban are the players most capable of achieving peace. Moreover, they were crucial to secure the country as a prime trans-shipment route for the export of Central Asia's vast oil, gas and other natural resources". Your government uses who it wants, when it wants, to get what it wants. It creates regimes in order to later exercise it's war machine against them. Throughout the 1980s, US administrations spent billions of dollars FUNDING the Islamic holy war or jihad by Mujaheddin fighters against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul in order to undermine the "Reds". You dont think the US profited from September 11th? September 12th, the US military's biggest supplier, Lockheed Martin's share value rose by 30 per cent. THE NEXT DAY! Whilst the entire stock exchange crashed, other notable rises included other military manufacturing giants such as Alliant Tech Systems, Northrop Gruman, Raytheon, etc.

The US censors and imposes sanctions on any country developing nuclear weapons, yet is the only country ever to have used them. It forces other countries to ratify the Nuclear Test ban Treaty, but refuses to sign itself. The US also imposes sanctions against any country developing biological and chemical weapons, yet has the worlds largest stockpile itself, some 30,000 tons, and refuses to sign the UN Biological Weapons Treaty. The US imposes sanctions like others change their underwear - in 1998 alone, the US had economic sanctions against 52% of the worlds population!!! In Vietnam you carpet bombed 3 entire countries, killing an estimated 3,000,000 civilians. At the end of the Gulf War, the US bombed a unarmed convoy killing 150,000 Iraqi's who had surrended days earlier and were no threat to anyone - just refugees. So yes, I stand by what I said earlier. 4000 lives in WTC was NOTHING. The US military is 250% bigger that than the next NINE possible enemies combined. THERE ARE NO MORE ENEMIES!!!! And still your government wants you to feel threatened. The Russian Threat, the Chinese Threat, the Cuban Threat, the Terrorist Threat...YOU STILL WONDER WHY PEOPLE FEEL THREATENED BY THE US?!?!?! Why certain factions are carrying out terrorist attacks against US targets? It's pretty damn clear to me. And this is just military - DONT get me started on environment and trade.

Bush's claims to hunt terrorists wherever they may be is laughable. You want terrorists? The US is a haven for terrorists. The military leader of the El Salvador death squads that murdered 10's of thousands in the 80's, now lives comfortably in Florida. The former Haitian dictator, Prosper Avril, well known torturer and murderer, was flown to Florida by the US government, and granted political asylum. A leading member of the Chilean military during the reign of General Pinochet, whose special responsibility was executions and torture, lives in Miami. The Iranian general who ran notorious prisons, is a wealthy exile in the US. One of Pol Pot's senior henchmen, who enticed Cambodian exiles back to their certain death, lives in Mount Vernon, New York. All these people either worked directly for the US government or carried out the dirty work of US policies. You think al-Qaeda is bad? Fort Benning, Georgia, aka the University of Terrorism, aka the School of the Americas. Graduates include almost half the cabinet ministers of the genocidal regimes in Guatemala, two thirds of the El Salvadorean army officers who committed the worst atrocities of that country's civil war, and the head of Pinochet's secret police, who ran Chile's concentration camps.

Kyle, you owe it to yourself to GET INFORMED about this shit dude. I know most of the above probably just spilled out and doesn'tread well, but it is all FACT. Research it, any of it. I am not making it up! Dont take everything you read and hear your goverment as gospel, they LIE TO YOU!!!! You talk about unneccessary violence? It is what drives your economy, and your country. Make no mistake, it is a VERY profitable business. The US military budget is enough to end all primary causes of poverty in the world. But hey, how profitable would that be?

Edit to add : I know it is not very cool in the US to be seen as unpatriotic. But surely it is a greater patriot who stands up and acknowledges that their government is wrong and wants to do something about it, than the ones who just nod their heads and follows the party line...?

Also, as Rob says, none of this means you are gonna lose Lux friends, or be targetted. Well, no more than usual anyway :wink:

Kyle

Post by Kyle » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:30 pm

Wow Preach, I don't know what you wanted me to get out of that. First of all, don't patrionize me. I may sound stupid to you, but I'm not as stupid as you think. By me saying I LIVED in England and Hawaii means I LIVED there. According to what you said I might as well have just visited places my whole life. 4 years in Englad isn't visiting. 2 in Hawaii isn't visiting. 4 in California IS NOT VISITING. I know what I'm talking about, you don't have to tell me.
Second, don't tell me that I'm being spoon-fed by my government. What are you thinking? You're paranoid. Wake up Preach, the world isn't the Matrix. I'm not being blinded by the fake world around me. Preacherman you're living up to the negative stereotype of your name.
I was amazed at your arrogance. Arrogance will do more damage to your argument than facts will do good. As for the facts you obviously know them. But it doesn't effect anything I believe, as of yet. I will research. I don't know the 'terrorists' are that the US gave sanction and I don't know the reason, but I'm not going to believe any of your conspiracy theories.
On the contrary, I think the lies the government is telling us is the same stupid one's you're spouting out. The whole 'America is evil' jargon is wearing thin. The entire liberal media is blasting this stuff out and it sickens me, because it's not the truth. Are there innocent people that die in wars? Yes of course. Do American soldiers slip up and kill innocent people? Yes, of course. Is it America's goal to kill innocent people? Of course not! I don't know where you live or what you do, but I can guarantee you that I know as much about the REAL US military as you do. I can nearly guarantee I know more officers than you, high ranking ones, and I can assure you that I haven't met a manevolent one yet. I spent my life in the military going to functions and meeting people. My dad was a fighter pilot, an officer, and an honorable one, and there are many more like him. The military isn't half as bad as the people it protects makes it out to be.
Liberals always seem insecure to me. Every liberal I know is always on the edge about something or another, and I always feel sorry for them. The loudest mouthed guys are the liberals, but they always seem scared. Always dredging up these conspiracies that the US is some crazed nation wanting death for everybody else. The biggest activists on the lunatic fringe. But then again, the jerks always speak the loudest. I can't take them seriously.
America is not about to break out into racial war. I guess I should have made my point more clear. Racism is not as bad as people make it out to be. There is a shade of it here and there, but white people are still friends with black people and vice versa. Another common liberal paranoia.
And Rob, OF COURSE I BELIEVE IN CAPITOL PUNISHMENT OVER ABORTION! It's so much more logical than the flipside! I can't believe how people want to save the lives of the guilty and kill the innocent. It's that kind of thing that equates modern liberals with Nazi's. It was the democratic party in the 1800's that claimed blacks were not really human, therefor they could be slaves. In the 21st Century it's the democratic party saying that unborn children really aren't human, so they can be killed. And talk about conspiracy theories, why are so many babies aborted? The answer: It's a multibillion dollar industry.
Man I can't say enough. I started this thread innocently trying to answer Pi's question. He wondered why I liked Bush. My original post was very middle-of-the-line, and then the ultra-left came out. Wow. I've seen a lot, but I never knew people like you guys really existed. It's almost like a cartoon exaggeration of a sad fact.

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Post by Flex » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:56 pm

I cant even read that... It's worse then school... long blocked text, gah, about politics too (I think) gah

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Post by Chappers » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:48 pm

Wow.

My first look at the Lux forum and you've got me wishing i'd stayed awake in those politics lectures :wink:

Anyway, don't want to add anymore to the debate as there's enough going on up there already.

It seems to me that Kyle has pretty much made his mind up and is not open minded enough to hear another point of view. What would Bush want to do in this situation? Nuke Him.

Perhap we should nuke this thread instead?

Love and Peas to all.

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Post by atom » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:52 pm

kyle. first of all the most important message:

i still wub u !

second:

i dont like you less because of what you are saying. in fact i find it interesting, inspiring and entertaining in the best sense to talk to other people about things like that. as much as my views may be shaped by the mass media, they are shaped by discussions like this. i think it was marshal mcluhan who said: all perception is mediated. that is, there is no such thing as reality, its what we make it, and what we believe. and i will always appreciate exchanging my thoughts with someone, because i think it is to my advantage as a human being to deal with other peoples thoughts, whatever they might be.

as we are now facing an evergrowing exchange of 'arguments' - that is 'opinions' actually, i feel i should start with a simplification:

the US = currently worlds most powerful nation = eventually going to fall apart like literally every other empire has before (german, chinese, french, spanish, british, japanese and - yes - austrian ;) )

its not a matter of right or wrong. it has to do with the fact that power is a force of destruction to whoever wields it.

its another fact (imho) that without resistance, without a counterweight, one starts to believe being invincible and will eventually be defeated.

another saying says: history is written by the victorious. so are other things like moral, ethics, laws and so on. those in power make their laws and define what is right or wrong. although you might find it a daring argument, let me say that if (just as an example) the taliban had the power america has today, americans would be called the terrorists. dont you think so ?

its not about good vs evil. its about powers vs powers.
a while after 911 i recall bush saying that who wasnt with him (the US) was against it. thats black and white and in my opinion not only the worst concept of how to see the world ever but on the border (at least) of fascism. the world looks much differently. its about finding a way for MANY, DIFFERENT opinions to live together peacfully.

no nation using its power for its own benefits will exist forever. its not only about the us. as the 1st world lives on the expense of the rest, it has to do so knowing that resistance to it will never stop. and so far no big nation before has managed to make its living without exploiting, surpressing and killing the poor. america is in now way unique about that. its just the latest example. and one day it will be the the late. ;)

Kyle

Post by Kyle » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:05 pm

I wub you too Atom! And Preach! And Rob! Well, maybe not Rob... Just kidding!

I agree with much of what you said Atom. I too believe America won't be around forever. But I do think basic morals stay the same from generation to generation. Even the Roman empire, who many say was the most corrupt. Some nations love slavery and brutality, but can you imagine a nation that celebrated running in battle? The basics of honor and justice seem to stay constant.

NEwayz (I HATE it how people spell it like that lol) this has been informative and entertaining. I must admit that I too narrow minded to be able to accept much of the arguments on this post as being legitimate, but I'm sure it's the same on the other side of the coin. I can admit that the opinions expressed on this board are honest and sincere, if that counts. I feel nobody who engaged with me is stupid or uninformed, actually quite the opposite. I just know how extremely cool I am and that I define the rules. Basically, I think I will write my own rules from now on. Come to think of it, I'll supress the poor as well.... 8)

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Post by atom » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:21 pm

kewl. and while you are at it, be sure to point some of the money my way. i need funds to finance tha anti-kyle revolution :twisted:

and thanks for the great show guys :D

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Post by Pi » Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:10 am

is it over?

What I meant to say Kyle in that game a couple of days ago was not what is your Bush theory, simply,

VOTE FOR KERRY

:D

Kyle

Post by Kyle » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:13 pm

No, vote for Hitl... I mean... Bush!

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Post by shopi » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:00 pm

Kyle,

Power corrupts and US is the most powerful country,
enough reasons to dig below the surface of things.

When the wise points at the moon, the idiot look at the finger.
That's all Bushlikes want you to see.

shopi

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Post by dustin » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:49 pm

I would just like to say that in all the hubbub about 9-11 and such, all talk of Bush' domestic policies ceased. I hope that this doesn't happen in the election, for reasons stated in my first post in this thread.

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Post by Pi » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:48 am

Just thought I would bring this post to the forefront again. There are some good posts here.

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Post by Bat Rastard » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:20 pm

Wow, what a string of well thought out discourse. I'm serious, it's a wonderful thing.

An important aspect is missing in all this - World Energy Security.
To point out that these wars in the mideast are about oil is both simplistic
and true on a much bigger scale. The world economy is based on a hydrocarbon fuel energy source(Oil, Gas, Coal). Demand is increasing while the supply has, or will soon, peak. While America is slammed for the flagrant waste of energy (SUV's and Hummers), America leads the world in making the most efficient use of a barrel of oil. The consumption is nonetheless obscene, and rising. As it is in all the developed and developing nations ... even in progressive countries like Holland and Germany with their intelligent programs to develop alternative energy. Everyone posting in this forum is living in an economy that is dependant on a reliable source of hydrocarbon based energy ... EVERYONE! Your government, as the US government, has placed a high priority on developing and maintaining secure sources of fuel to meet the expanding energy needs of their constituents. Nothing threatens the US economy more than the possible loss of oil flowing out of the mideast, and that is equally true for Europe, Japan, China, and for that matter the entire world economy.

If you are reading this you need energy security to maintain your lifestyle and like it or not the US government is providing it.


Personally, I like it not at all. I shake my head in disgust at the SUV's that never leave the road, the Pickup trucks that never haul a load, and the monster Hummers with one occupant rolling down the road at 8 miles per gallon. I am ashamed of a government that has ignored both fuel efficiency standards and the increasing CO2 emissions this entails.
I am saddened by both the blindness of my fellow Americans and the naivitete of those citizens of other countries who choose not to see the benefit they receive by the US led effort to maintain the flow of mideast oil. Outside of the major oil producers, no developed nation is even remotely energy independant and even that is a moot point as the world economy is so inter-connected. If any major economic entity on this planet experiences a serious depression the world economy will follow. Oil producers included. One may argue that the current US governments' current actions regarding energy security appear counter-productive, but unless one is part of a purely hunter-gatherer culture, one is in no position to argue against the need for energy security.

My parents are Canadian, of French, German, and English descent. All my relatives are Canadians and I grew up on the receiving end of America bashing. I elected to serve in the military at a peak in America bashing (Viet Nam). I have visitited many countries and also lived in several and know now that some of the bashing is all too valid. I also know that so much of it serves only to distract populations from the awareness of the path they are on, and the ensuing consequences.

Bash away all you want ... it won't change these fundamental facts:

•Oil in particular, and hydrocarbon fuels in general, are being
depleted at unsustainable rates by the WHOLE world.

•CO2 emissions into the atmosphere are increasing to a point where global climate change/catastrophy is becoming a certainty for the WHOLE world.

•No energy source is even on the horizon that can both replace hydrocarbon fuels and maintain the WORLD economy as is.

•Short of the the worlds' economic and military superpower using military means to insure a reliable supply of energy for its needs AND the needs of it's trading partners, no solution is apparent.

•As long as we stay divided and play the blame game a solution will remain elusive.

One possible solution: we could elect to revert to being hunter-gatherers. Sasquatch would probably be pissed about that, especially as the planet would have to shed about 5 billion humans to make that solution sustainable.

The first thing any of us can do is to increase our awareness. May I reccommend: "The End of Oil" by Paul Roberts and/or
"The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann

Best Regards,

Greg Braun

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Post by dustin » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:53 pm

Bat Rastard wrote:•No energy source is even on the horizon that can both replace hydrocarbon fuels and maintain the WORLD economy as is.

•Short of the the worlds' economic and military superpower using military means to insure a reliable supply of energy for its needs AND the needs of it's trading partners, no solution is apparent.
That is not true. There ARE some sources on the horizon that look promising. They are still far away from being an oil replacement, but they do exist and we should be trying to further them. How much did the war in Iraq cost? Can you image the scientific advances that could have been achieved if all that money was put into researching alternate power sources? It would be HUGE.

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Post by Preacherman » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:19 pm

The US consumes some 20 million barrels of oil a day, making it the #1 consumer worldwide. This figure is more than the next 8 countries COMBINED. If you remove Japan and China, which are the 2nd and 3rd biggest consumers, the US consumes more oil than the next 14 countries combined. The US is the largest single emitter of carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels. The US might not be the only guilty party, but it is certainly the one that should be leading by example. By way of contrast, Chad manages on a mere 1000 barrels of oil a day. Their population is about 1/25th that of the US.

Per capita, the numbers are no better. The US consumes about 77 barrels a day, per 1000 people. It produces about 7,600 thousand barrels per day itself...meaning it is reliant on the import from other countries. The average European statistic is about 25 barrels per 1000 people.

The revenues from Norways oil production have over the last 50 years been used to develop longer term power alternatives, to the point that 99.4% of all it's domestic power needs are now generated by hydro power alone.

A note about CO2 - the US produces 5,762,054 units (1 unit being 1000 metric tonnes) of CO2 emmissions per year, again by far making it the worlds worst offender. Removing China which is #2 on the list, US emmissions are equal to the total of the next 15 countries combined.

The point of all this, is as I think I stated before - without US ratification of environmental treaties, they are not worth the paper they are written on. Without US INVOLVEMENT in these issues, it matters not a jot what the rest of the world does to try and help. Sorry - but that is a fact.

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Post by Bat Rastard » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:24 pm

dustin wrote:
Bat Rastard wrote:•No energy source is even on the horizon that can both replace hydrocarbon fuels and maintain the WORLD economy as is.

•Short of the the worlds' economic and military superpower using military means to insure a reliable supply of energy for its needs AND the needs of it's trading partners, no solution is apparent.
That is not true. There ARE some sources on the horizon that look promising. They are still far away from being an oil replacement, but they do exist and we should be trying to further them. How much did the war in Iraq cost? Can you image the scientific advances that could have been achieved if all that money was put into researching alternate power sources? It would be HUGE.
"Far away" is too far away.
I can imagine the 10's of billions of dollars Iraq is costing being invested in weaning the world off of a hydrocarbon economy, it appears to be too little too late. The lessons learned in the 70's were squandered by world politicians pandering to their respective publics to stay in office. The tough decisions needed to be made 20 some years ago, and weren't. We have enormous energy using populations emerging in among other places China and India. Both demand a "fair share", and both are nuclear powers. The amount of hydrocarbon fuels being burned for energy right now is simply enormous and is growing at an exponential rate. The world economy is based on the availability of cheap energy-oil, coal, gas. Easy oil production has peaked, and difficult to extract oil sources such as the oil shale in western Canada will neither keep up with demand or maintain an "easy oil" price point. We do not need to merely run out of oil for our economic house of cards to fall. All we need is to have oil hit over $80 a barrel for that. On the current track oil will easily hit over $200 a barrel in 15 to 40 years. The current price of oil is artificially low to begin with.
ALL of the energy alternatives currently being developed are energy intensive in themselves which will limit both their availability and scale. Perhaps developing an economical means of producing a room temperature super-conductor in conjunction with a WORLWIDE commitment to reduced energy use would avert the difficult times ahead ... but do you have any idea what a miracle that would be? We cannot even realize a worldwide commitment to end genocide. Ending world hunger would be a cake walk in comparison.
Population is increasing at an alarming rate ... conservatively stated as the equivalent of a city the size of Los Angeles being added EVERYDAY! Mostly in emerging economies whose energy demand has not even begun to be felt. Who is going to tell them no? Will Montreal willingly only use electricity for 6 hour a day, and New York, Paris, Moscow, Islamabad????

So yes, it would have been nice to spend the money on education and development of alternative energy sources rather than killing fellow humans. That needed to have been a priority years ago and the world leadership dropped the ball. It appears now that until a "miracle/tragedy" of enormous proportions occurs, the military scramble for the dwindling energy resources is going to be an ongoing saga.

From my front porch in the foothills of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains I can look across at night and see the lights of Los Alamos National Labratories. The thought that the Bush government is seeking to develop smaller low-yield bombs and also to renew testing there, makes me ill.
It does not, however, surprise me as the reasons why are obvious.

Again, those books are a good read. "The End of Oil" is well referenced and current. (©2004) I am NOT some survivalist / end-of-the world doomsayer. If I was I would also bring up global warming, depletion of the rain forests, increasing scarcity of healthy potable water, and the looming inability of the planet to feed the exploding human population.
I personally limit my use of everything and try not to waste. I feel all that though is a lesser contribution than prayer. I pray a lot.


Regards as always,
Greg

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Post by Mike » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:39 pm

what if the governmet spent a small portion of that money making Lux capable of accomodating all the countries in the world. Then we could just have virtual warfare, and dole out the resources etc. that way.... Sounds like a bad episode of Star Trek, but perhaps we would get a version where more than 6 people could play.

Mike

:lol:

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Post by Headache » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:18 pm

That would be nice, but people are willing to protect their rights and resources with their lives. I dont think George Bush would risk not stealing the oil from Iraq over a game of lux.

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Post by sasquatch » Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:18 pm

Here is a dizzying counter for the spiralling cost of the war in Iraq in U.S. dollars....
http://costofwar.com/

I have already posted this link in another area of the forum, but it seems quite relevant to this thread. I am sure an economist can explain what future returns we may see from this +$127 billion investment from a good business point of view. Yet we know from countless examples that what is good for a corporation's financial health isn't neccessarily good for the rest of us in the world (and doesn't always consider all the actual variables and outcomes). So I think the BIG question is:

Should we base U.S. foreign policy solely on the best interests of our corporations continued financial success or do we have a responsibility to consider the impact on the rest of the world's wants and needs when we decide official policy?

The "rest of the world" consists of anyone not profitting from the company success which in this case is many people in the U.S.A. as well as those in other countries.

Best Regards,
Sasquatch

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on bush

Post by logan » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:11 pm

brazilian

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Post by rob » Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:50 am

modern conservative economic philosophies are based on immediate gratification. Instant money, Instant profit, Instant ejaculation, Instant death of democracy.

these neo-cons think they earned their way to the "top" when really they are just licking Satan taint.

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logan
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heh

Post by logan » Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:04 pm

mmm satan taint, salty

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Post by dustin » Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:50 am

Bat Rastard wrote:Will Montreal willingly only use electricity for 6 hour a day, and New York, Paris, Moscow, Islamabad????
Quebec (the province that Montreal is located in) is a net energy exporter. Mostly that energy is produced by hydro. Canada also has large uranium resources as well as nuclear power technology that can be expanded when it becomes more cost efficient then oil. Of the other cities you mentioned I have no idea as to the situation. The point I would like to make is that the rest of the world is NOT in the same boat as the US.
Bat Rastard wrote:So yes, it would have been nice to spend the money on education and development of alternative energy sources rather than killing fellow humans. That needed to have been a priority years ago and the world leadership dropped the ball. It appears now that until a "miracle/tragedy" of enormous proportions occurs, the military scramble for the dwindling energy resources is going to be an ongoing saga.
The 'world leadership' is not at fault. If your country looks like it might be in a pickle in a few decades then it is your country's leadership that has dropped the ball. But do you really think it is too late? It took the US 10 years to go from some dinky rockets to putting a man on the moon. I have faith that when the time comes other technologies will be ready to replace oil without the world falling to pieces. However it would be much better if the work was jump-started now.

PS: The leadership of a democracy is its citizens. If a ball has been dropped (or if it fails to get picked back up) then the fault should be spread amongst the people.

Kyle

Post by Kyle » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:55 pm

Wow! My old blockbuster thread has new life! Way to open up old scabs!
JK

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