Math vs Maths - grammer fight

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smedz
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Postby smedz » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:24 am

Can we please all get something straight, the word origin is MathematicS thus the abbreviation HAS to be Maths.

Of all the american bastardisations of English, this must be the one that gets furthest up my nose.

If you don't stop misusing the language I will have to adopt the persona of an enraged high school student and gun you feckers down!

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Postby kitty on catnip » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:32 am

but smedz, noone in the U.S uses 'maths' , they just say math. It is just a natural development of the language across billions of people and many years. It isn't really wrong, it's just different than you. I mean, if a child goes to 'math' class every day of their lives, you can't really blame them for using the term 'math', cause that is what they are taught.

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Postby sasquatch » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:18 am


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Postby hoodie » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:58 am

smedz wrote:Can we please all get something straight, the word origin is MathematicS thus the abbreviation HAS to be Maths.


No it doesn't. Mathematics isn't plural, it just happens to end with an s. It's like saying you should shorten Biology to Bioy instead of Bio.

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Postby smedz » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:55 pm

There is no such subject as Math, Mathematics is a collective term for the studies (note plural) of Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry and Calculus. It is plural and thus has to be Maths.

Mathematic is the singular, people do not study Mathematic they studty Mathematics.

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Postby Mike » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:11 pm

smedz wrote:Mathematics is a collective term for the studies (note plural) of Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry and Calculus.


...just as the UK - is the collective formation of nations (including but probably not limited to) England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland -

No need to force your 'Common-wealthic Views' on the rest of us Smedz -

What is Arithmetic - I noticed you left it out of Math(s) - is that sort of why Greenland is not included as part of North America (Preach) - or does it have something more to do as to why Europe is not a part of Asia?

:wink: :wink: :wink:

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Postby the tide » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:18 pm

:smt044 @ Mike ; Nooo not that again.

I'm agreeing with Smedz on this one.

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Postby hoodie » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:33 pm

Actually, in your reasoning, Mathematics is singular. It is the set (the single set) of topics you described.

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Postby smedz » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:51 pm

Arithmetic is not a Maths subject, taught seperately in the UK for 100's of years!

Woohoo Tide and Smedz Agree AGAIN!

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Postby Black Pope » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:19 pm

Math is pretty. Me likey. Math go smile.

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Postby Preacherman » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:49 pm


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Postby Kurtz » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:29 pm


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Postby smedz » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:44 pm

Even the Oxford English & American Dictionaries agree with me ...

OAD wrote:Mathematics - plural noun


Check your dashboard, I think you'll find that it has similar things to say about it's plural state, the word is Maths!

:x

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Postby kitty on catnip » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:53 pm

just bc 'mathmatics' is a 'plural noun' , doesn't mean it's 'maths', and not 'math'

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Postby Drifter » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:19 pm

It seems that during the boat ride from Great Britian to North America the "s" was lost in shipping. Ask Oxford.

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Postby smedz » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:19 am

Drifter wrote:It seems that during the boat ride from Great Britian to North America the "s" was lost in shipping. Ask Oxford.


So we can chalk this up to yet another mistake ... The bastion of the English Language says "Maths" yet because you inbred hicks couldn't be bothered pronouncing the "s" we all have to accept that "Math" has evolved into something acceptable.

Shall we chalk it up with Tire (Tyre), Curb (Kerb) and Aluminum (Aluminium) - lets not even get onto all those missing u's.

As for 3 card cash, You are most likely to get them when least needed!

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Postby nietzsche » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:36 am

Drifter wrote:It seems that during the boat ride from Great Britian to North America the "s" was lost in shipping. Ask Oxford.


of course, it is also entirely possible that the US took the word from another language such as German (Math = Mathematik) or that the abbreviation 'math' spread from somewhere like Minnesota with a lot of German immigrants ...

:smt102

... just thinking aloud ...

and trying to annoy a fellow Brit

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Postby hoodie » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:06 am

smedz, you forgot to cut and paste the part [usu. treated as singular]

so apparently it's not cut and dry and neither of us is wrong... but in the vernacular, it is used as a singular noun.

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Postby Sidhe » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:22 am

Hoodie -

It may well be usually treated as singular but it is grammatically incorrect.

For instance - if we were to take a noun such as "elephant" and shorten it to "phant" for the sake of simplicity then surely if you were to refer more than one "phant" you would add an 's'. Abbreviation does not change the rules of pluralisation.

We all agree that math is short for mathmatics and
we all agree that there are many types of mathmatics. Math requires an 's' to indicate its plural form otherwise it is written as " a math" when using it as a singular noun.

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Postby Mike » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:39 am

Sidhe wrote:we all agree that there are many types of mathmatics


From everything I have found on the net - Arithmetic is a component Mathematics

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Postby my wife hates me » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:47 am

smedz wrote:...because you inbred hicks couldn't be bothered pronouncing the "s"...


working smarter, not harder

:mrgreen:

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Postby Drifter » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:47 am

Ok, so the plural of Cactus is Cacti, Octapus is Octapi, mouse is mice, and goose is geese. Does that mean if you have more than one Elvis impersonator, the plural is Elvi?

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Postby smedz » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:30 am

my wife hates me wrote:
smedz wrote:...because you inbred hicks couldn't be bothered pronouncing the "s"...


working smarter, not harder

:mrgreen:


That is funny in just about every way, sadly not in the manner intended.

:lol:

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Postby nietzsche » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:41 am

Sidhe wrote:We all agree that math is short for mathmatics and
we all agree that there are many types of mathmatics. Math requires an 's' to indicate its plural form otherwise it is written as " a math" when using it as a singular noun.


as a (part-time) language teacher I have to say this is not necessarily the case.

There are many 'uncountable' nouns - such as 'rice' 'money', 'information' etc - which are the same in the singular and plural form.

'I had rice for breakfast' obviously means I ate more than one grain of rice.

Mathematics is clearly an uncountable noun - we say 'mathematics was my worst subject' not were.

There are other similar nouns out there - logistics, linguistics - and the question is whether the abbreviated form of these should be 'log' or 'logs'.

The logical abbreviation of the word 'mathematics' would have to be 'math' because to keep the 's' would be to suggest it is a countable noun.

In short, the word 'mathematics' ends in 's' but it is an uncountable noun so the 's' has no grammatical significance and therefore is not necessary in the abbreviated form.

nietzsche hurries off his application for a green card

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Postby kitty on catnip » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:32 am

I hope smedz is joking about the hicks thing. That would definitely show how ignorant he is. please smedz, tell me you are joking.......

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Postby One Big Wave » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:58 am

kitty on catnip wrote:I hope smedz is joking about the hicks thing. That would definitely show how ignorant he is. please smedz, tell me you are joking.......


Just keep in mind that a couple times a year he puts on a plaid skirt :shock:

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Postby AquaRegia » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:26 am

So I have a question for smedz which will settle it for me - answer honestly:

Do you say a) "Maths IS my favourite subject" or b) "Maths ARE my favourite subjects"?

If the answer is b), then I will happily agree with you. If a), however, then your argument falls to pieces, a victim of the perpetual illogic of the English language we both so love. You are using "maths" as a singular noun, as shown by both the verb (is) and the object (subject). It doesn't make sense to have it both ways; but of course, LOTS of things about English don't make sense.

Golgi wrote:What I really want to know is:

What are the chances of NOT being able to cash with 4 cards?


The only way you have the hated "4 no cash" is to have 2 pair. In the hypothetical "simplest case" (i.e., holding 3 cards and picking a 4th one from an otherwise complete deck), the odds are 13/42 of picking one of the cards that gives you the dreaded 2 pair, which is just about 30%. Of course, this doesn't factor in the odds of NOT having a cash on 3.

Is that good enough?

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Postby smedz » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:36 am

nietzsche wrote:
Sidhe wrote:We all agree that math is short for mathmatics and
we all agree that there are many types of mathmatics. Math requires an 's' to indicate its plural form otherwise it is written as " a math" when using it as a singular noun.


as a (part-time) language teacher I have to say this is not necessarily the case.

There are many 'uncountable' nouns - such as 'rice' 'money', 'information' etc - which are the same in the singular and plural form.

'I had rice for breakfast' obviously means I ate more than one grain of rice.

Mathematics is clearly an uncountable noun - we say 'mathematics was my worst subject' not were.

There are other similar nouns out there - logistics, linguistics - and the question is whether the abbreviated form of these should be 'log' or 'logs'.

The logical abbreviation of the word 'mathematics' would have to be 'math' because to keep the 's' would be to suggest it is a countable noun.

In short, the word 'mathematics' ends in 's' but it is an uncountable noun so the 's' has no grammatical significance and therefore is not necessary in the abbreviated form.

nietzsche hurries off his application for a green card


Taking on the Oxford English Dictionary is one thing, challenging Julia is quite the opposite ... I urge you to consider your position for the good of all men!


Now as for kitty, I find it intersting that (a) you could assume I wasn't joking and (b) that your choice of phrase suggests that you already consider me to be ignorant and that making such a statement would simply prove that to be the case.

Kitty on Catnip wrote:That would definitely show how ignorant he is


By placing "is" in the sentence, you suggest that my "ignorance" is a given and that the statement simply proves the point, clearly this shows to me that you cannot correctly structure a sentence and thus have an "ignorance" all of your own.

AquaRegia wrote: Something clever


I would never "Maths is my favourite subject" as I happen to hate it, however I would never say "Math is my favourite subject" .... because the word is Maths.




Havatcha!

:smt065

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my wife hates me
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Postby my wife hates me » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:46 am

smedz wrote:...Havatcha!

:smt065


Bring It!

I'll bite your kneecaps off!!!

:smt067

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Postby djdee » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:07 am

djdee is embarrassed by his countrymen's pedantry.

Especially as most English people can't even speak or write their own language correctly.


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