Sillysoft Forums

[mnemosyne]

i simply do not understand the closed-minded turtle hater & and "turtles first" mentality.

i think i am the only one who openly defends the strategy. /mme 'i wanna be the minority.'

some players, including a recently appointed moderator, will kill, half-kill, asshat anybody who turtles without even thinking about it, usually with no benefit (0 or 1 card), often killing themselves in the process.

1. turtles are passive. if anything the aggressors should be killed first.

2. turtles are players, waiting for the right opportunity to make a move if it comes (admittedly, its fairly rare, but with all the hotheaded half-kills of late, opportunity knocks more often than it should sometimes). i love the 'play the game' argument in defense of killing turtles first. we are playing, we are watching, we are calculating, we are deciding when might be a good time to card, or make a move.

3. turtles 'win' not by winning the battle always, that's a single-minded approach to war, but by improving position.

4. i do understand the lament about turtles on opening nights a bit more (e.g. sunday, monday) when less 'raw' is at stake. but again here, 'raw' is not and should not be the only goal for luxers.

5. classic is one of my favorite places to turtle, just to make the game seem less like a simple mathematical formula. sometimes, classic especially is like playing in a room full of reapers and very one-dimensional. there is more to lux than plopping down your big sausage in asia and circle jerking around china.

6. this one-dimensional 'kill, kill, kill' mentality without a more nuanced understanding of war has placed several countries in unpalatable strategic positions across the globe in the past several years.

7. it has been said that people who turtle need to 'get a clue.' see, e.g., previous thread from this summer ("beating a dead turtle"):

http://sillysoft.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=220158

i dare say that exactly the converse is true for people who believe this. those of you who believe turtling is somehow inherently evil or unintelligent would do well to read sun tzu's "the art of war." the important parts are especially applicable to the hothead (masculine?) warriors i mention above.

see, e.g.

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

"Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical. If it is to your advantage, make a forward move; if not, stay where you are. Anger may in time change to gladness; vexation may be succeeded by content."

i know its not a popular position, i know i will never have a hella win percentage because i often practice what i preach, but there is another side to the argument, and nobody is making it.

i also know what's coming next (its the reason why i don't post very often), so flame on, young warriors.

respectfully,

m

[Nimrod7]

There are plenty of Turtle Defenders. Soundboy is the biggest one I know. Dollabillz, Buymoria, Supreme Commander, Badlands are others (to name a few).

As far as the turtle strategy goes, I will not tolerate someone who turtles from round one. If someone turtles with income, I will pop it. Otherwise, I usually don't go out of my way to kill a turtle unless...
1. I need a card they have to auto cash.
2. I think I have no chance of winning and kill for a better place.
3. It's the end of the game and I can kill a turtle for card advantage or while pathing to kill another player.

My problem with turtles is that only a few seem to know how to use it as a winning strategy. It seems to me that a lot of people do it out of cowardice or they want to protect their precious magical internet points. When there are three in a game, that's a problem to me.

Other threads dealing with turtles:
http://sillysoft.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18089
http://sillysoft.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17879&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Shockandawe]

Exactly Nimrod

To put it short. It's not the turtling strategy that is the problem. It is the where and why that is the problem.

[soundboy]

[Packman]

/me sighs

Anyone here ever heard of PackTurtle Wax? Turtling used to be a sound strategy. The problem as I see it is this, too many people turtle too often. Hell, last night I'm playing in a game and we had 3 of em by round 5. I've seen as many as 5 of them in a game. I've seen people in the army lead with NA turtle. I've seen people turtle from round 1 - without ever taking a card! Seriously? Look, I get that if you've been severely beat up and you've got only 10 or 12 armies and OZ and you're going to be the last to cash and probably wont survive the next turn, that your best chances of winning are to turtle. So forgive those of us who refuse to award turtling. I think I can speak for all of us when I say that it's an annoying problem with the game. I think it's actually working. I've noticed some people who used to turtle habitually will now make an effort to actually play. Probably because they see me in a game and know how likely it is that I'll bump em, pop em, or kill em. Funny, I've found the games more fun of late too......I wonder......

[n00less cluebie]

Umm....just a warning nemo. If TMNS (Teenage mutant Ninja soundboy) offers to let you 'wax his shell' just....pass....TRUST ME!

In any case, here are some more helpful threads that our Clown-Mod forgot to mention:

wherein we explore how to positively express anti-turtle aggression

A Modest Proposal for limiting Turtling in Marathons

http://sillysoft.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15647[url]In which we look at how the RAW system encourages Turtling[/url]

Wherein was created (alas now lost) a theme song for TMNS (any chance you still have this file Sound?)

n00less cluebie
Official Clown Reference Librarian

[soundboy]

[soundboy]

[*Manimal]

There's not enough flaming in this thread. Anyway, my contrasting opinions..

[mnemosyne]

thanks for the thoughtful replies, and sorry about the the immature imagery re: classic play, manimal. there does seem to be a pretty uniform style of play in classic with certain players, and anybody who strays from that is given "the treatment."

i agree with most of what has been said. strategic turtling is (sometimes) boss, cowardly turtling is not. and even though i politely disagree with nimrod about turtling, i have less of an issue with turtle income getting popped.

thanks also for calling my attention to the other threads, i am not terribly familiar with the forums part of lux.

glad to hear there are a few others (soundboy's stock value just skyrocketed). to modify a reference from shadowlands: why do we [lux]? we [lux] to know we are not alone!

tgif

m

[Big Will E Style]

I've said this before...but cowardly turtling stems from our ranking system. If you can lose more for 6th than you can get for 1st, it is going to cause people to want to avoid 6th place at all costs. If you start the game as a nomad and in 6th position, your chances of 6th place increase dramatically. Strategic turtling can stem from similar circumstances, but when it comes down to it, turtling is a problem because of the RAW system we have in place.

I agree with Soundboy. I consider it asshatting if someone is so worried about a turtle that they don't play to win in order to not lose to the turtle. It seems quite hypocritical to me. Turtles first should usually be applied when someone already has a game wrapped up and you are next to go.

[Enzo1997]

Is it turtling if you kill someone with 5 cards?

∞ Enzo1997 scratches his head ∞

[imapickle]

\me bravely turtles

[THE J-Dude]

THE J-Dude bravely kills the Pickle-Turtle for 0 cards, making himself an easy kill worth 4 cards...

[Nimrod7]

∞ The J-Dude is officially Nim's hero ∞

[THE J-Dude]

[Nimrod7]

[THE J-Dude]

Nice NimMod... Now, I can only hope you get LIFE in prison...

[Enzo1997]

lol

[n00less cluebie]

[THE J-Dude]

Hah... yeah your probably right n00!!! st00pid no-life clown

[Red Beard]

[tigs]

...thus ends the debate: turtles are alright.