so which will it be?

Leave your worries at the door. New dice available free upon request.

Which will it be?

get third in a suicide
0
No votes
suicide, then hope the others won't kill you
0
No votes
play for second
3
30%
nondescript move, do try to explain in the forums
6
60%
Pray they land lock themselves
1
10%
 
Total votes: 10

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Kude
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so which will it be?

Postby Kude » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:49 pm

A recent bio game got me thinking of this...


so...endgame in a short game of bio. One player controls half the board. You and another player are stuck in one corner, a third in Africa, and player 4 owns the Americas and Europe. 4 makes enough income to wipe the board in three or four turns. You have three choices left now. You could kill the other in africa, be left with nothing, and get wiped next turn, giving you third. You can sit there, waiting for the end to come, or in essence, play for second, hoping you won't be next. Or, in a desperate last move, you can suicide on red, hoping another can cripple him without killing you. So, to recap. Giant, you, and two others. Suicide 1, suicide 2, or play for second?

Which will it be?

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Postby dollabillz » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:02 pm

and there's one of the main reasons bio is terrible

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Postby Rhye » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:42 pm

Generally, if I am correct, the typical thing to do in such a situation is the 1st player after the "super-power" uses his armies and takes down half of the super-power's defending army/armies (or as much as he can) so that the last player can go through the super-power's armies. I'm not saying that it is the best way, but it's better than suiciding or playing for second.

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Postby Dominator » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:52 pm

I'm pretty much on board with what Rhye said.

It depends on the playing order. If the super power moves directly after you, your screwed unless the other player does something first.

If I'm the player who goes after the super power, I would probably hit him with just enough so that the player who moves after me could break his income if he wanted, but would be pretty weak if he does. Kind of tempt them into making the move ... then clean up afterwards.

If I go before the super power, I just sit and react to what the person before me does. At that point its going to take a joint effort to win, and making a move without any support is suicide.

In either situation I would refrain from taking second because I've seen plenty of games where someone misclicks and gets self locked (I've done it myself a few times). Point is, you don't know whats going to happen ... and sometimes it can be more beneficial to wait for the leader to make a mistake then trying to settle for second. The difference between second and third is so insignificant compared to the difference between first and second.

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Postby Kude » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:37 am

well, it all depends on africa. You sorta blocked up the other asia, due to me being the only opening, and as a matter of fact, I did go right after. I ended up losing because I tryed to do something though.

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Postby Enzo1997 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:47 pm

Diplomatically play for first.

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Postby Kude » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:10 pm

um...? That's not possible. No way in hell will America open, and africa won't move in a desperate play. I wish i had taken a screenshot of the board now... kam was closes, me had one opening, brazil was closed. Those are all that mattered. So, Iceland was only way to america, and afgan to asia.

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Postby Enzo1997 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:29 pm

USE DIPLOMACY, ASK THEM TO MOVE!

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Postby Samuel99 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:48 pm

I usually try to hit other players income equally,for sure theres other way to end a game then to just freaking suicide.

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Postby Kude » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:54 pm

... enzo, I will say it one more time, try to listen. YOU occupy ME, the only opening. don't get WHY the largest would move to let you pop him/her, but I'm sure you can try... Africa has no reason to move, afgan is up top, no connection to af. The superpower is hoarding up in iceland, blocking all entrances to NA. Brazil is bio, middle east(the bottom half) is bio, kam is bio. ural is bio. THose are the ones that mattered. A player has russia, you have fe, oz, and me. One has Af, and the fourth has NA and SA, and SCAN.

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Postby Rhye » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:06 pm

Enzo1997 wrote:USE DIPLOMACY, ASK THEM TO MOVE!


*cough* http://www.sillysoft.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22332

kude wrote:I wish i had taken a screenshot of the board now...


Yes, that would've been helpful, since you are talking very specifically.

I honestly didn't read your whole post, quite the contrary, I skipped over almost every word of all of your posts in this thread. However, I'm quite sure I got the general idea of the situation and I still stand by my (and Dominator's) reasoning that you should follow this generalized guideline:

Rhye wrote:Generally, if I am correct, the typical thing to do in such a situation is the 1st player after the "super-power" uses his armies and takes down half of the super-power's defending army/armies (or as much as he can) so that the last player can go through the super-power's armies. I'm not saying that it is the best way, but it's better than suiciding or playing for second.


And, unless you disagree, I think this topic is settled. (Or if anyone else has a point which contradicts my belief.)

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Postby Kude » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:11 pm

*cough* (he's actually gotten worse since that post, especially in reality)


Generally, you are right. I still don't like having to play by using others to help you. IN the end, nobody can really get anywhere from that point. All the possible moves that can be made are frowned upon in one way or another. In the end, I prefer the first offered, which is to not play at all.

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Postby Rhye » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:26 pm

I assumed that that wasn't really an option, given the fact that you were already involved in the game, and you'd piss everyone off if you left in the middle of the game.

Also, let's not turn this into an anti-biodeux thread. Yes, I know, neither one of us really like Biodeux, but that isn't the purpose of the thread nor should it be the purpose of any thread (unless addressed in a professional manner.)

And, such an event can happen in any game, not just a game of Biodeux..... while it occurs much more frequently in Biodeux we shouldn't categorize it as simply another issue with Biodeux. We think of it as a Biodeux problem, simply because Biodeux has many more choke points than your typical map. As an example that we both can relate to, think of when someone controls Carthage to Maur in Rome II. We tend to use many of the strategies suggested in this thread to counter that opponent as well.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that this is untrue:

dollabillz wrote:and there's one of the main reasons bio is terrible


Such a problem cannot be avoided by avoiding Biodeux itself. The only (common online game) where this doesn't happen is Classic (for the most part). So don't view this as another Bio-problem, it is a issue across the board (heh, heh, a lux pun.)

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:32 pm

it's an issue common to all high income games, yeah. but it's magnified in bio because random bottlenecks for ridiculous income are apparently part of the fun.

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Postby paranoiarodeo » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:34 pm

Wait. What? Why is Samuel discussing bio strategy?!

∞ paranoiarodeo is confused ∞

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Postby Kude » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:36 pm

some said raw roulette was fun, but that means nothing. Some people like betting, whatever. I admit, the bottlenecks are huge issues. The gameplay is much different. But I guess there are no non-frowned upon ways to deal with this. It's a lose-lose-lose situation, followed by you losing the game.

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:55 pm

beginning with you entering a bio room

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:59 pm

seriously though, i can't even imagine how frustrating it must be for you guys to come up with ways to draw out the argument for "smash some shit and hope for the best"

this example is a symptom of a brutally unbalanced map. but like i said, that's what's supposed to be fun about it, right?

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:01 pm

and respect to dom's response which is clearly the correct one. correct because it gives the best chance, however slim, of winning. but holy fuck what a boring map.

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Postby paranoiarodeo » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:02 pm

Like you have any clue about any of this stuff ...

∞ paranoiarodeo shushes dolla ∞

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Postby Rhye » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Rhye wrote:Also, let's not turn this into an anti-biodeux thread


The thread is supposed to be about what to do in a particular situation, you a straying off topic and posting negative comments about Biodeux when it is not required. Now, I'm no mod, and I have no authority within the forums, but let us avoid turning this into a flaming conversation about Biodeux itself.

(Not to mention the pointless triple post, where all of the posts have the same off-topic nature.)
Last edited by Rhye on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby paranoiarodeo » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:05 pm

'tis growing colder and I need some kindling.

∞ paranoiarodeo yanks Rhye's soapbox out from under him ∞

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Postby Rhye » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:08 pm

I think my box is more comparable to a tissue box to a soapbox.

(I, for the record, hadn't seen you post before I posted)

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:11 pm

if i was trying to start a flame war there'd be at least triple the number of expletives that i used.

not to mention, who's gonna passionately defend bio anyway? it's called the ghetto for a reason.

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:13 pm

but for the record, the forum is way overdue for a good'un

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:13 pm

TRIPLE POST FOR CONSISTENCY

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Postby Rhye » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:24 pm

Biodeux is the most popular [online] map in Lux, so I think that the map itself and its players should be treated with a certain degree of respect. Assuming that no one cares about Biodeux is rather foolish, saying that it wouldn't be their favorite map if they tried more types of maps (or if more types of maps were available) is irrelevant. In any case, I'm in no way defending Biodeux as a map or calling it my favorite map, I just think that a certain degree of respect should be shown to players who do play Biodeux often and enjoy playing it. Online lux would be a very boring place indeed if there was only one type of map to play. Variety is important!

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Postby nimrod7 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:26 pm

Oh... he's serious.

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Postby paranoiarodeo » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:27 pm

Soooo serious!

∞ paranoiarodeo begins hiding all sharp objects ∞

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Postby dollabillz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:30 pm

that amounts to saying i should respect Go Fish because all the patients on this side of the asylum are playing it


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