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paranoiarodeo
Lux Moderator
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 8157
Location: Perched Upon the Eternal Throne of Lobotomia
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 Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: /me whiskey tango foxtrots |
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Pop quiz ...
What percentage of red's armies are completely fucking useless ... ?
(Does anyone still honestly wonder why Rome incessantly marathons?)
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Dominator
The Man
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 1278
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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well i dont have my calculator handy but roughly ... all ... 
Yellow (orange?) also has a lot of useless men
romers need to start killen' !!! |
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soundboy
Sonic Turtle
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 1031
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Oh the inward fortification...
Strategery at its utmost.
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*Manimal
Lux Cutie Pet
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1956
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| 1-60/225 = about 73.3% useless troops! Suggested idiocracy percent to avoid marathons = 27.5%. Hmm it adds up. |
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paranoiarodeo
Lux Moderator
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 8157
Location: Perched Upon the Eternal Throne of Lobotomia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ∞ paranoiarodeo wonders if he should laugh or cry or scream or just give up ∞ |
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Enzo1997
Lux Vacationer
Joined: 25 May 2009
Posts: 1598
Location: The edge of sanity
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| *Manimal wrote: | | 1-60/225 = about 73.3% useless troops! Suggested idiocracy percent to avoid marathons = 27.5%. Hmm it adds up. |
lol I was gonna say 70% as an estimate! |
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Behemoth
Lux Flyweight
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Approx 110 of 234. 47% give or take.
The west isn't an easy spot to hold or launch an attack from. Some inward defence is wise but not as much as this, and not in Bracara, Salmantica, Lusitania or Carthago Nova. |
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Behemoth
Lux Flyweight
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| I say 47% without knowing the circumstances of the game. If the west had been repeatedly attacked by other players in successive turns then a defensive non-threatening position can be effective short term. |
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BDF
Lux Newbie
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 330
Location: The back of my wardrobe
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:12 am Post subject: |
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There is one big advantage to inward defence. This also reveals itself in bio.
If someone wants to hit your income, and is bent on doing so, and you have absolutely all your troops on the borders, then he has to whipe out everything you have on that border.
What's left then is open income. Very easy to hit. So in your example para, if yellow only wanted to hit bae, he'd do that, but leave the rest of the income be while it would have been left undefended after the bae attack. Its usually condemned not to hit open income.
Inward defence means yellow could hit bae, but it would be reasonable for him to stop there, and not carry on to hit lus, tarra and hisp.
Also (when it gets to much larger numbers), inward defence can make it very difficult for an opponent to calculate how much is needed for an effective assault. |
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n00less cluebie
Lux N00b
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 7056
Location: At the Official Clown Reference Librarian Desk--'All the answers you weren't looking for.'
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Did Trotsky write a LUXXING for DUMMIES book? |
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Shockandawe
Lux Vigilante
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 1884
Location: In orbit around Kerbin.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| BDF wrote: | There is one big advantage to inward defence. This also reveals itself in bio.
If someone wants to hit your income, and is bent on doing so, and you have absolutely all your troops on the borders, then he has to whipe out everything you have on that border.
What's left then is open income. Very easy to hit. So in your example para, if yellow only wanted to hit bae, he'd do that, but leave the rest of the income be while it would have been left undefended after the bae attack. Its usually condemned not to hit open income.
Inward defence means yellow could hit bae, but it would be reasonable for him to stop there, and not carry on to hit lus, tarra and hisp.
Also (when it gets to much larger numbers), inward defence can make it very difficult for an opponent to calculate how much is needed for an effective assault. |
Not really. This actually allows someone to pop all of the income for cheaper than it would if all of the armies were forted to their borders. It just allows for armies to attack back.
Besides that's not the point. You can't win the game if all you do is defend. |
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Rhye
Lux Crooner
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2046
Location: From Here to Eternity
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Shockandawe. I understand leaving a few in a defensive position, but you cant use any of those armies quickly. You can't "Seize the day" if an easy kill pops up and you can't attack if you think you must. Its really hardly useful at all. Or as paranoia said:
| paranoiarodeo wrote: | | completely fucking useless |
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n00less cluebie
Lux N00b
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 7056
Location: At the Official Clown Reference Librarian Desk--'All the answers you weren't looking for.'
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't have enough armies to defend your borders in a way that keeps you in fear that someone is going to break all your income you should consolidate your forces to the borders of the continents you CAN defend! In BIO I am CONSTANTLY giving up a smaller continent when I take a bigger one if I don't have enough to defend both....When I get the forces I'll take it back if possible
I you don't overextend, you won't have a problem with weak borders or worrying about internal stacks
The ONLY time it makes sense to spread out your forces evenly is when you are protecting yourself from being eaten up, and that's only so much effective. |
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kude
omni member
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 1757
Location: waiting in line for luxtober §
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| wow, i feel like only noobs play rome now adays. maybe i should switch to bio. wait... I still have the noob problem(mostly) |
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Rhye
Lux Crooner
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2046
Location: From Here to Eternity
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| kude wrote: | | wow, i feel like only noobs play rome now adays. maybe i should switch to bio. wait... I still have the noob problem(mostly) |
By winning Rookie of the Year(or finishing well), it means you are "Among the best Noobs"  |
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paranoiarodeo
Lux Moderator
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 8157
Location: Perched Upon the Eternal Throne of Lobotomia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhye wrote: | | Among the best Noobs |
Isn't that like ... um ... least dillish of the anti-holies ... ?
∞ paranoiarodeo grumbles ∞ |
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Rhye
Lux Crooner
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2046
Location: From Here to Eternity
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't know. I haven't been a noob in awhile. |
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kude
omni member
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 1757
Location: waiting in line for luxtober §
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| im among the better noobs. i mean the new noobs who dont talk, or play well, or win. |
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n00less cluebie
Lux N00b
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 7056
Location: At the Official Clown Reference Librarian Desk--'All the answers you weren't looking for.'
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhye wrote: | | kude wrote: | | wow, i feel like only noobs play rome now adays. maybe i should switch to bio. wait... I still have the noob problem(mostly) |
By winning Rookie of the Year(or finishing well), it means you are "Among the best Noobs" |
Why is kude using that avatar anyway when he finished behind
Winner is Engie
Second for Capicola
Third for jesterme
Runner-Ups:
ahbadme67
RogueMonk
pierce34
And then FINALLY kude
Hell, I wasn't aware that 7 newbies even JOINED this year!  |
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Enzo1997
Lux Vacationer
Joined: 25 May 2009
Posts: 1598
Location: The edge of sanity
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| kude wrote: | | wow, i feel like only noobs play rome now adays. maybe i should switch to bio. wait... I still have the noob problem(mostly) |
How about you go to classic? |
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kude
omni member
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 1757
Location: waiting in line for luxtober §
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| not too many people play classic. i think i wont. |
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Behemoth
Lux Flyweight
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Shockandawe wrote: | | BDF wrote: | There is one big advantage to inward defence. This also reveals itself in bio.
If someone wants to hit your income, and is bent on doing so, and you have absolutely all your troops on the borders, then he has to whipe out everything you have on that border.
What's left then is open income. Very easy to hit. So in your example para, if yellow only wanted to hit bae, he'd do that, but leave the rest of the income be while it would have been left undefended after the bae attack. Its usually condemned not to hit open income.
Inward defence means yellow could hit bae, but it would be reasonable for him to stop there, and not carry on to hit lus, tarra and hisp.
Also (when it gets to much larger numbers), inward defence can make it very difficult for an opponent to calculate how much is needed for an effective assault. |
Not really. This actually allows someone to pop all of the income for cheaper than it would if all of the armies were forted to their borders. It just allows for armies to attack back.
Besides that's not the point. You can't win the game if all you do is defend. |
There's some truth to both sides of the argument.
If I were red I'd opt for holding less income. In my experience the longer the game goes on the lower the chances are the west will win.
Either way the defence in this example does red no favours. |
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BDF
Lux Newbie
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 330
Location: The back of my wardrobe
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Behemoth wrote: | | Shockandawe wrote: | | BDF wrote: | There is one big advantage to inward defence. This also reveals itself in bio.
If someone wants to hit your income, and is bent on doing so, and you have absolutely all your troops on the borders, then he has to whipe out everything you have on that border.
What's left then is open income. Very easy to hit. So in your example para, if yellow only wanted to hit bae, he'd do that, but leave the rest of the income be while it would have been left undefended after the bae attack. Its usually condemned not to hit open income.
Inward defence means yellow could hit bae, but it would be reasonable for him to stop there, and not carry on to hit lus, tarra and hisp.
Also (when it gets to much larger numbers), inward defence can make it very difficult for an opponent to calculate how much is needed for an effective assault. |
Not really. This actually allows someone to pop all of the income for cheaper than it would if all of the armies were forted to their borders. It just allows for armies to attack back.
Besides that's not the point. You can't win the game if all you do is defend. |
There's some truth to both sides of the argument.
If I were red I'd opt for holding less income. In my experience the longer the game goes on the lower the chances are the west will win.
Either way the defence in this example does red no favours. |
Ye arite, either way I also think what red's doing is stupid. What I usually do is place loads on the island in spain, like over half of my armies at least. Quite a few in south baetica, and some more surrounding that (forted inwards). I also obviously depends how other players are placing. If someone's gonna block me with just as many troops as Ive got in sard, then it's kinda pointless my placing on that island, perhaps shift a force out to NI and build there. That can also provoke players (esp. whoever's in Rome). Can often get you halfkilled, 'cos they pre-emptively take out ur army.
You may say you can't win a game playing defensive (it's true), but for players who are tiny, they stand even less chance winning if they play offensive. Sometimes you need that retaliatory threat behind ur borders in case someone hits. The trick is to be able to switch to offensive just when the time is right and you stand a good enough chance. Red definately isn't tiny in this context, so Im not sticking up for him.
And btw shockandawe... it doesn't even allow red to attack back lol. He's spread too thin in defence. He has no large solid army behind his borders to launch a solid counter-strike. Just 20's everywhere. Would be far more effective if he at least consolidated them into groups of 75 or so.
Last edited by BDF on Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BDF
Lux Newbie
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 330
Location: The back of my wardrobe
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Double post... sry.
BUT... who was red in that game. Own up. Lol
Last edited by BDF on Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:35 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Shockandawe
Lux Vigilante
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 1884
Location: In orbit around Kerbin.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Sure it does. If blue goes through the 15-10-10-25 there are suddenly a bunch of armies opened. |
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BDF
Lux Newbie
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 330
Location: The back of my wardrobe
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Shockandawe wrote: | | Sure it does. If blue goes through the 15-10-10-25 there are suddenly a bunch of armies opened. |
Yes... that might open a whole load of armies.
BUT... the largest amount that would be able to strike back at blue (excluding income and cash), would be 40. Why? Because 30 in south baetica would be the largest army freed, with pathing leading to blue, and 10 would be the 2nd largest army able to strike at that border.
That's a total of only 40. It's not hard to prepare ur defence for that if you do it smartly. Personally I would retreat temporarily in gaul than risk 30-40 of my guys trying to defend it after hitting someone. |
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Behemoth
Lux Flyweight
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Shockandawe wrote: | | Sure it does. If blue goes through the 15-10-10-25 there are suddenly a bunch of armies opened. |
Not quite sure what you mean. The largest army is a 30 in Bae and already open. There is nothing this player is hiding that poses a real threat, nothing with enough grunt to charge though africa or france. Certainly nothing near powerful enough to topple a single country bonus or break open the north east.
I'm not a fan of playing from the West. If I find myself there and the game has some legs I'll look for a switch. But that's usually only possible on the spoils of a kill.
I did win a game recently by launching an offensive from red's exact position. The action started way too late but once it got underway it felt like a three way end game for the most part, with one player in Rome/north east and another in Carth/Africa. I remember the trick to that game was not letting up the offensive. I limited the player in Carth to pretty much just Carth and was careful not to let Rome hold south italy or the north east for long. It was extremely hard to hold much income for any length of time in the west though. Anyway it turned from being a yawn into an action packed game with some great moves by all players, and nobody flipped the board over when things didn't go their way which was a bonus. One player even posted about it afterwards to express his satisfaction.
Sure there's room for improvement, but it's not all bad. |
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WhirlPlaid
Lux Pacifist
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 2408
Location: Waiting for a Cube Wars game.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| BDF wrote: | Double post... sry.
BUT... who was red in that game. Own up. Lol
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OK, I'll admit it, it was me. I was playing a slow defense, I was gonna wait it out, I was gonna let you all kill each other and then snatch victory away from you. I can't believe you folks can't see how sound my approach was. |
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Behemoth
Lux Flyweight
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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How can you be sure?  Was Mnemosyne involved somehow, she's got decent recall.
The 45 minute doomsday whatchamacallit inspired me just now. That and 35 minutes of being hammered for daring to tap poorly defended income within reach. Num wasn't so much as breathed on for 5 rounds or more with a total of zero troops to guard it! Can't these people read!
 
Last edited by Behemoth on Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BDF
Lux Newbie
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 330
Location: The back of my wardrobe
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| WhirlPlaid wrote: | | BDF wrote: | Double post... sry.
BUT... who was red in that game. Own up. Lol
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OK, I'll admit it, it was me. I was playing a slow defense, I was gonna wait it out, I was gonna let you all kill each other and then snatch victory away from you. I can't believe you folks can't see how sound my approach was. |
U have a title of Lux Pacifist so I'll let you off.
lol |
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