World War II

Synchronized-turns strategy. Calling all teamers.
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dustin
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World War II

Post by dustin » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:25 pm

I put up a WW2 host with 24 hour turns. Come play!

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el toro
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Post by el toro » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:07 pm

okay

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Post by blackj3sus » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:23 am

just got a job... :(
(don't worry not a real one ) :lol:

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Post by mbauer » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:43 am

Hey what happened to the WWII game?

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Post by jesterme » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:51 am

I tried to join last night and noticed it was gone.

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Post by dustin » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:10 pm

looks like we were able to crash it!

i'll put another one up...

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Post by RandomGuy » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:11 pm

it just couldn't handle germany toppling UK in the first turn :lol:

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Post by mbauer » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:49 pm

RandomGuy wrote:it just couldn't handle germany toppling UK in the first turn :lol:
I notice the bots do that, and I don't like it. Any suggestions on how to prevent that? Do you think it's a problem?

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Post by Mike » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:03 pm

mbauer wrote:
RandomGuy wrote:it just couldn't handle germany toppling UK in the first turn :lol:
I notice the bots do that, and I don't like it. Any suggestions on how to prevent that? Do you think it's a problem?
2 Potential Options

1. If you place the German Tanks further than 1st turn striking - or give Germany more infantry and fewer or no tanks. Make them build tanks.

2. Make the United Kingdom 2 seperate countries - North and South. Have the Castel in the North - so it is not withing tank striking distance first round.

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Post by dustin » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:26 pm

I think a first turn capture of England should not be possible. Probably not 2nd turn either.

more british pawns would help. or moving german knights away.

another potential option:
widen europe, to add a benelux country between germany and france. so germany and england have a distance of 3 between them.

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Post by mbauer » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:55 pm

Mike wrote:2. Make the United Kingdom 2 seperate countries - North and South. Have the Castel in the North - so it is not withing tank striking distance first round.
dustin wrote: another potential option:
widen europe, to add a benelux country between germany and france. so germany and england have a distance of 3 between them.
I'm concerned about countries being too small if I do either one of those. Especially a little Benelux sandwiched between too larger countries (France and Germany).

What if I increased English pawn count, moved German knights further away, made the connection from England into France one-way, and added Denmark in order to put Germany 3 spaces away? Denmark will be small, but it will have spill over room into the surrounding sea areas.

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Post by RandomGuy » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:10 pm

mbauer wrote:
Mike wrote:2. Make the United Kingdom 2 seperate countries - North and South. Have the Castel in the North - so it is not withing tank striking distance first round.
dustin wrote: another potential option:
widen europe, to add a benelux country between germany and france. so germany and england have a distance of 3 between them.
I'm concerned about countries being too small if I do either one of those. Especially a little Benelux sandwiched between too larger countries (France and Germany).

What if I increased English pawn count, moved German knights further away, made the connection from England into France one-way, and added Denmark in order to put Germany 3 spaces away? Denmark will be small, but it will have spill over room into the surrounding sea areas.
extra english pawns, good.
german tanks at least 3 spaces away (make them commit 2 turns from castle to castle) - so Denmark addition is good.
I think the connection can stay two-way - not sure if that means moving the tanks further away though, Id have to check the map.

I don't think an allout assault on UK is the best opening move for Germany in any case, so I doubt it will come up often. Preventing the bots from trying it is a good goal, though.

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Post by Mike » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:28 pm

Is the idea of a zoomed in area of the map for Europe out of the question?

If you don't want to change the map -

1. What about a map where England has already been captured? Have a castle in Canada, or Australia - lessen the values of UK - perhaps no castle in England.

Or -

2. Make France and Norway Neutrals - with large amount of Pawns -

Of these ideas - i like no. 2

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Post by mbauer » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:38 pm

I uploaded a new version. All I did so far is move the German tanks further away and added more pawns to Britain. Now, at least the bots don't try and take Britain too early, unless the British player makes a stupid mistake (which does happen occasionally).

I'm still working on what the best way to fit a 3rd country in there is.

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

MB

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Post by mbauer » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:08 pm

Alright, so I was able to fit in a "West Germany" in order to move Berlin further away from GB.

I also added in some continents.

I was thinking of maybe either giving the British a 2nd castle (Oz, Egypt, or India) or giving them enough starting monies to build their own where they choose. What do you guys think of that idea?

MB

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Post by mbauer » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:10 pm

Released another update

- Made Euro countries a little larger, not a whole lot.
- Pulled German knights back into Berlin and gave Russia a little more pawns.
- Added a UK castle in Canada.

Russia remains a pretty difficult start. If I make them stronger, then it gets really tough for Germany.

I'm not sure about the 2nd UK castle. My thoughts for it are: it allows them to get in on the Pacific war more, but doesn't detract too much from the Euro war. I don't know maybe it would be better suited in S Africa or Oz? Or none at all?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
MB

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Post by mbauer » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:14 pm

Made a few more changes

• Enlarged Europe a little more
• Moved Canada's castle to central Canada
• Added continents for NA, Europe, and Soviet Union

I was thinking of adding a connection from the Solomons to the Philippines. Good idea or not?

I'm also thinking of maybe dropping the Allies starting units down a little.

Thanks,
MB

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Post by Mike » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:31 pm

mbauer wrote:Made a few more changes


I was thinking of adding a connection from the Solomons to the Philippines. Good idea or not?
I think a one-way from Philipines to Solomons is a good idea - consider it the power of the Japanese Fleet - being local, versus the Allies having to Island hop.

Why?

USA is mighty powerful - and with UK All over down there - it'd help encourage more interaction with say Japan and USA - without giving USA a more direct line to Japan.

Also - the one way, may make Philipines a more strategic target mid-end game - in lieu of just the place to have before takes Japan. Armies could bypass Java and the like - so someone sitting in Japan doesn't have to fight everything in that area to break out.

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Post by RandomGuy » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:18 pm

my personal opinion is that one-ways can be really confusing, especially for new players, so I'd tend to avoid them for a demo map unless the one-way is particularly critical.

I think the Solomon Islands is a little too important in the current layout, though, in that it can lock down half the pacific traffic and hold australia. I am hesitant to add a faster path to japan though from the US, though.

Not sure what the right solution is.

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Post by blackj3sus » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:31 pm

maybe a map to introduce advanced map features...

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Post by mbauer » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:59 pm

Yeah, I don't know about a 1-way connection in there. I agree that they aren't user friendly, but it would solve the problem I see, which is it takes Japan a long time to get to the Solomons.

How about instead, a connection from the Solomons to Borneo? Skips one country at least, when Japan has to get down there quickly. But that would render Java and Sumatra rather meaningless.

How about connecting Hawaii and New Zealand?

And/or Western Oz and Sumatra?


MB

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Post by dustin » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am

I think the pacific connections may be OK as they are now. Solomans makes for a great bottleneck, and when somebody busts through it, they must decide whether to waste time grabbing oz income, or rush past towards the other side's homeland.

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Post by mbauer » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:57 pm

How 'bout a connection from Iceland to Norway?

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Post by mbauer » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:32 pm

Alright, so I made some pretty drastic changes to the scenario. I know I ask this a lot, but please, please, please give me some feedback on how you think the balancing is. You can tell me it sucks, I won't take offense, promise. I can always go back to the last version.

Changes I made:

• Moved 2nd UK castle to India
• Moved US castle to central US (equa distance from all exits)
• Made latin America easier to conquer by reducing neutral pawn count
• Reduced German knight count
• Increased German pawn count in Africa
• Increased European country bonuses
• Reduced Russian knight count, increased pawn count
• Increased country bonuses in Pacific

From my all bot tests the wins seemed evenly distributed, Allies won slightly more often. I tried to make it so the Axis' best strategy is to be really aggressive at the start and try to take as much as possible. Where as the Allies, I tried to make defensive at the start and turn offensive when the Axis overextends. 1 Game I witnessed saw the Axis take both Russia and UK and the Allies came back and won, but that was probably an extreme fluke.

Please let me know what you think, even if it's negative.

Thanks,
MB

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Post by Mike » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:44 pm

I have not play tested yet - but first glance impressions are -

• Moved 2nd UK castle to India - I like

• Moved US castle to central US (equa distance from all exits) - I like a lot

• Made latin America easier to conquer by reducing neutral pawn count - Not sure

• Reduced German knight count - I like

• Increased German pawn count in Africa - I like

• Increased European country bonuses - Not sure yet about EU Value (seems high, especially with UK and at 10 each already) I like the Russia overall bonus, it will motivate Russia to keep all of her territory

• Reduced Russian knight count, increased pawn count - I like

• Increased country bonuses in Pacific - I like

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Post by djdee » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:12 am

I know I might not be very good at this map but I cannot win as russia, every game Russia gets all defences wiped out in the first 3 or 4 rounds and just has to sit there with no income and waiting until Japan and Germany overtake his army in Moscow.

I have tried various tactics attacking and defending but to no avail.

I can win as USA, UK Germany or Japan but Russia never survives.

Can someone explain it to me how this is balanced? or what I am doing wrong.

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Post by drSnuggles » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:52 am

I think balancing a Vox map is (often) a big issue, especially with teams.
Map makers can barely run simulations with humans only to find out what might be adequate. There is the option to have it simulated with strong bots only and if the end varies, it at least seems to be balanced. Team play is even more unpredictable.
In the end we can only experience good/bad balance with human feedback after some fullhouse games.

I agree that Russia is in a bad position. If Germany and Japan like to conquer it, it is not a big deal.
However, similar situations also exist on other maps, e.g. Napoleonic Wars. There are weaker and stronger players right from the beginning.

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Post by mbauer » Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:49 pm

As the Doc said, balancing a team Vox map can be very hard. In the WWII map Russia is definitely the hardest start and the game is weighted against that player. However, in my exhaustive tests it seemed that if I made Russia any stronger, then Germany was too weak and the Allies won every time. I feel the map as a whole is pretty balanced between the 2 teams, but every players does not necessarily have the same opportunity or ability to win.

My approach to Russia is to not attack at all, only build pawns and defend. When Germany is about to take Moscow, I abandon it in order to keep my army in tact and not lose all my forces. I can then join UK in India to stage a slow comeback. It's not easy, but it has worked for me.

That being said, I don't like how Russia usually gets killed rather quickly in games. And I'm open to suggestions on how to prevent that. As I said, simply giving Russia more troops seems to me, to throw the whole map balance towards the Allies. Maybe make more of a buffer between Berlin and Moscow by somehow adding more countries in between them?

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Post by Marauder » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:38 pm

I have found the easiest way to win with Russia is to make a concentrated attack on Germany within the first three rounds. Consolidate forces into Moscow first one to two rounds, build in Moscow while doing so, then make a solid attack into Eastern Europe via Finland. Leave enough behind to defend Moscow, while concentrating your forces from Eastern Russia into Moscow.

Usually USA will keep Japan busy and Germany will fall back to defend Berlin. I didn't try to take Berlin once Germany retreated, by then I fell back into Moscow and UK had helped a bit with Germany.

Was over fairly quickly once Germany is broken, what worked for me was to put Germany on the defense immediately.

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Post by djdee » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:50 pm

I do not get that result. If I attack Germany in Finland (which is the most obvious option) and just protect Moscow. I weaken Germany but it leaves Japan free to become unassailable. Japan then hits me and Germany starts to rise again while I am homeless.

I think with human players the chance for russia is even worse. It is easy for Japan and Germany to kill Russia in the first 3 or 4 rounds. Germany just has so many tanks at the start.

Maybe Russia needs a 2nd home or more income. It is just not possible to hold the income around Russia.

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