Driven out of your own country? Cure for Teamphobia.

Synchronized-turns strategy. Calling all teamers.
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Behemoth
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Driven out of your own country? Cure for Teamphobia.

Post by Behemoth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:36 pm

Had a quick scan of the forums and didn't see anything written on this issue. Apologies in advance if I missed it.

Anyway, I just completed a 3vs1 map and noticed that the game doesn't re-size units when they move into a team member's country. I had noticed this on Bushido also but the problem was minor there. I'm kicking myself for not giving this more thought when designing Alcatraz...

Image

Solution in the short term would be to ditch teaming for this map.

Or... change the way the units are placed...

I had an idea for this;

Any teams units entering a friendly country would shrink and be placed in the same position the mapmaker configured the owner's units to be only with a slight offset. At the end of the turn they will appear layered, with the foreground 'visitor' unit smaller than the owner's unit, and maybe slightly transparent also (this would help keep troops numbers legible)

Here's what I mean in rough visuals.

Image

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Behemoth
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Post by Behemoth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:05 pm

I've re-sized all units and rearranged them a bit. Wouldn't want to make them any smaller. Don't think this is a solution but it might help a bit.

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Post by blackj3sus » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:18 pm

which ones clint eastwood?

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Post by Behemoth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:32 pm

blackj3sus wrote:which ones clint eastwood?
Nasty case of drowning.

Bit of that going around, he probably caught it off Scooter.

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dustin
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Post by dustin » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:22 pm

This issue came up a bit in my tests with Hex Lords.

When many units are in a country, it will create a new unit-point that's offset from one of the existing ones. The offset currently used is 3 pixels to the right, and 25 pixels down.

So you could plan for this, by putting the actual unit points near the top half of the country, to allow the offset ones to also be in the country.

Or the offset values could change.

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Post by Behemoth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:01 pm

Ah, I should've just asked. I lined up a couple of screen captures in photoshop today and counted the offset.... :P I'm pretty sure I noticed some offsets that were horizontal, but most were vertical drops.

After reducing the size of the units the game plays a lot better I think.

But I do think a new approach to the offset is really worthwhile. With a bit of experimenting I'm sure a good alternative can be found. Did the idea of a size reduction appeal?

I did have more than just the size issue in mind when I was putting together the suggestions btw. I was also trying to think of the most logical visual device for multiple players to co-habitate countries. To my mind the more grounded or 'fixed' the placement of units are the better. This is what I was aiming for with the layered effect - that the initial positioning of all units would remain reasonably constant throughout the game.

Having said all that I totally see your point re making countries spacious - and Alcatraz is not the best example of this.

:|

One more thing. Would it be ok to release the same map with alternate starts. For instance I think Bushido plays well as a 6vs1. Would be great for players to have a choice if the mapmaker can provide it.

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Post by RandomGuy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:07 pm

What about just one unit icon and then duplicating the little circle in each color for whoever has armies sharing that space?
Similar to you staggered idea but without the small units at all. Each player would just click the single unit to access their armies.

Sorry if this is unclear. I am on my phone or I would mock something up.

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Post by RandomGuy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:09 pm

Oh, I also like the idea of multiple scenarios. Probably best just to release a second map version rather than build in support for it.

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Post by dustin » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:53 pm

Hmmm, I kind of like RG's suggestion of having just 1 image, but multiple bubble-numbers for different owners.

I'd also considered shrinking the unit icons (when maps get shrunk), but I feared shrinking such small images wouldn't look very good. I haven't tried it in practice tho.

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Post by Behemoth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:31 pm

RG's one icon idea is one step better. County size ceases to be an issue If it's just the orbs with the numbers duplicating + one icon representing multiple players is the ideal visual for what team play is all about; many players working as one.

Tidy work RG.

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Post by Behemoth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:46 pm

Ps. Re producing same maps with alternate starts.
If there's no support for it the question is then how to re-name them. It feels like this should be standardised.

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Post by dustin » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:30 pm

I don't like the idea of releasing the same map with just a different scenario. I think almost every map could have many different scenarios in it. But this would make for a very cluttered map manager. So I like the idea of just taking the best scenario for each map.

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Post by Behemoth » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:28 pm

Ok. If you do decide to test a different method of unit placement for team games let us know. Be keen to see how it worked on Alcatraz - Bushido too.

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Post by Behemoth » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:26 am

RandomGuy wrote:What about just one unit icon and then duplicating the little circle in each color for whoever has armies sharing that space?
Similar to you staggered idea but without the small units at all. Each player would just click the single unit to access their armies.

Sorry if this is unclear. I am on my phone or I would mock something up.
Image

Something like this?

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Post by RandomGuy » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:20 am

yep, just like that

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Post by jesterme » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:38 pm

Behemoth wrote:
RandomGuy wrote:What about just one unit icon and then duplicating the little circle in each color for whoever has armies sharing that space?
Similar to you staggered idea but without the small units at all. Each player would just click the single unit to access their armies.

Sorry if this is unclear. I am on my phone or I would mock something up.
Image

Something like this?
I think that would be helpful and clear some confusion.

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Post by nimrod7 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:39 pm

Behemoth wrote:Ps. Re producing same maps with alternate starts.
If there's no support for it the question is then how to re-name them. It feels like this should be standardised.
dustin wrote:I don't like the idea of releasing the same map with just a different scenario. I think almost every map could have many different scenarios in it. But this would make for a very cluttered map manager. So I like the idea of just taking the best scenario for each map.
A solution to this might be having a unit placement option like in Lux. Each player puts units where they want them in the beginning of the game.

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Post by Behemoth » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:55 pm

The problem occurs when multiple friendly units occupy the same country during the game. There's no way of predicting which country will be host to this, or how many units will be placed there (obviously not more than 7 if there's three players on a team - 3 Knights, 3 Pawns, 1 Castle).

Aside from map makers making every country extra large to ensure there's enough space, there's minimising the offset between automatic unit placement that occurs when a new team member joins a friendly country, or a solution like the one RG came up with, which get's around the unit issue by representing teams as the bubble with the number on it.

I reckon RG's idea is the go, but I haven't seen how effective the new offset is yet. Have to play a few more games to test it out.

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Post by dustin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:38 pm

Here's a map idea that would force the issue...

5 guys on the West team.
vs
5 guys on the East team.

fun connections and bottlenecks in the middle. etc.
or something similar...

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Post by Behemoth » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:40 am

Not sure my next one can support 10 players.

Good news is the new offset appears to solve the issues with Alcatraz, although I've only played it a few times.

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Post by Behemoth » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:56 am

Here's a map I could make into 3 vs 3, or 4, vs 2-3, but I think I'll run into trouble with some of the smaller countries having teams greater than 2, even with the units made very small.

In the lower left corner you can see a comparison to Hades knight unit.

Image

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