Is it unfair to suicide after an obvious threat?

Game of universal domination. New dice available free upon request.
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Baden
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Is it unfair to suicide after an obvious threat?

Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:44 pm

The situation in Paras Classic room just an hour ago:

I was trapped with 2 cards in oz 28 armies there and about 20 armies in Mongolia. Para had 70 armies in China free way to oz and three cards.

So he announced to kill me next round while waiting for his turn:

▉ paranoiarodeo: Smash is still hangin' ...
Texan: uber low cash
✱ Smashley ran out of turn time! ✱
▉ paranoiarodeo: Sorry Baden
▉ paranoiarodeo: Actually I better wait a turn just in case ...
✱ paranoiarodeo ran out of turn time! ✱
∞ paranoiarodeo glares at Smash ∞
∞ Texan thinks it may have been a mistake to foretell that move ∞
▉ Smashley: :/
✱ mentor09 has joined ✱
▉ paranoiarodeo: If she cashed I was toast ...
mentor09: hi
Texan: hey manic
Texan: =]
▉ paranoiarodeo: 'eya mentor ...
▉ paranoiarodeo: Oh fuck you Baden ...
Texan: see para
Texan: lol
▉ Smashley: lo
▉ Baden: if you announce it
▉ Smashley: l
▉ paranoiarodeo: That's board flipping bullshit ...
▉ Smashley: yup
Texan: ∞ Texan thinks it may have been a mistake to foretell that move ∞
▉ paranoiarodeo: You just changed the outcome of the game for selfish reasons ...
✱ Baden was eliminated by Smashley in round 10 ✱
✱ The host has booted you from the game ✱
✱ If you think this host causes problems then you can rate the host ✱
✱ Connection to remote host lost ✱
✱ The network connection to the server was lost ✱"

Texan commented it well:

"Texan thinks it may have been a mistake to foretell that move"

I had two options:

- No action and getting killed for sure (as announced) after taking 5 armies more.

- just suiciding all my armies.

The result for me would have been the same in both cases (a 6th place).

So I hardly had "selfish reasons".

It is war game. I think that it more honorable to let the troops fight a last futile battle instead of letting them slaughtered like sheep without resistance.

Of course I weakened Para with my decision essentially. Thus his anger. No idea what happened after since he booted me.

I admit that I am not completely sure if my decision was right. We should discuss this case unbiased.

But one thing is for sure: I would not have attacked if Para would have stayed silent instead of revealing his plan.

I can't remember such a double windmill situation even after + 18.000 games.

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dollabillz
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Post by dollabillz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:47 pm

it probably was dumb to announce it but you're still an asshat

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:50 pm

(Four turtle game. Baden was the only turtle with two cards. Obvious target.)

Third option: Losing with honor and not flipping over the game board.

You deliberately, consciously, and maliciously changed the natural outcome of the game.

You and Jerry T have much in common. Shame on you both.

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dollabillz
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Post by dollabillz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:58 pm

there's no doubt that baden is just a vicious, board-flipping asshat, but i'm amused that even engie saw it coming.

/me clears his throat

YOU'RE SLIPPING, PARA

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:58 pm

paranoiarodeo wrote:(Four turtle game. Baden was the only turtle with two cards. Obvious target.)

Third option: Losing with honor and not flipping over the game board...
So "losing with honor" means: Hands up and no resistance at all?

Quite the opposite might be defined as "honor" as well.

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:00 pm

You know what? In retrospect, Jerry T had more class than you'll ever have Baden.

(At least he wasn't a pretentious liar who denied his true motives.)

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dollabillz
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Post by dollabillz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:01 pm

yeah, spazzing out and fucking someone over is totally justified as long as it doesn't impact your finishing position.

:roll:

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:05 pm

dollabillz wrote:it probably was dumb to announce it but you're still an asshat
Dolla, you feel really competent to comment that here?

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:10 pm

paranoiarodeo wrote:You know what? In retrospect, Jerry T had more class than you'll ever have Baden ...
Your opinion. But fortunately we have more objective standards. Did Jerry T ever win a "most sportsmanlike medal" buy public vote of the Luxers? I did.

Btw. we have another objective standard here:

http://sillysoft.net/lux/rankings/hosts/rate.php

It is simple I stay out of your host in future since I dislike anyway your selfish booting policy.

I set my standards there and get obviously good response for. Perhaps since I am a good loser and don't boot players as much as you do?
Last edited by Baden on Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:20 pm

Your "most sportsmanlike" medal was given in 2006, long before the Lux community became aware of your endemic cheating via multiple registrations. You haven't won any such medal ever since, nor will you ever again. Nowadays, Baden, you are the epitome of unsportmanlike conduct. If anything, I feel sorry for you, since you seem unable to understand your own predicament. "Most entertaining" player? Perhaps, but only in a carnival freak show sorta way.

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:29 pm

paranoiarodeo wrote:Your "most sportsmanlike" medal was given in 2006, long before the Lux community became aware of your endemic cheating via multiple registrations. You haven't won any such medal ever since, nor will you ever again ....
Who knows?

But isn't it funny that all my alleged alias (K-SWISS, Lars, Urban Spaceman) had a good reputation as +1 recommended hosts?

Tempi passati. Relax, Para.

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Post by The Exiled » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:31 pm

it was poor behaviour baden .........

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Post by Dominator » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:36 pm

I was in the game. Baden's move was completely out of line and un-necessary.

There is a difference between going down fighting and playing for someone else to lose.

Even though para tipped his hand, it was OBVIOUS that Baden was going to be killed. He was a 2 card turtle in a game with 3 other 1 card turtles.

The move Baden made was his way of saying "I don't care if I die, I just don't want para to kill me."

Because there was no strategy in the move whatsoever, it was just slam para with everything he had and leave 3 easy cards to the player who moved next. If para had not said anything, Baden would have continued to turtle and para would have killed him ... resulting in an exchange of "gg's". Why does the fact that para said something make it "ok" to suicide when there was absolutely no clear strategic move or chance of survival. At that point you hope for a block and go down with honor.

In addition, you should KNOW that he is going to kill you next ... even if he didn't say anything. The verbal confirmation should mean nothing. Your not a noob spazzing out because you don't know better. You know what your doing out there ... it was a malicious move plain and simple.
Last edited by Dominator on Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:37 pm

Baden wrote:I set my standards there and get obviously good response for. Perhaps since I am a good loser and don't boot players as much as you do?
If playing three and four bot games with unknowing newbies is "good response", then yes, you've done very well for yourself. Congrats, Baden. Bravo. As for how often I boot players, I point to my record of hosting nearly 200k games in the last 18 months. I have booted a tiny, insignificant fraction of individuals who've played in my rooms. Perhaps you should pause, and reconsider your own behavior, considering you are one of the rare few who's been expelled. Shame on you, not me.

(You long ago moved beyond "alleged" misconduct, Baden. Cheating is cheating, and you're a cheat.)

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Re: Is it unfair to suicide after an obvious threat?

Post by Kude » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:39 pm

Baden wrote: So I hardly had "selfish reasons".

lol

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:41 pm

Dominator wrote:I was in the game. Baden's move was completely out of line and un-necessary.

There is a difference between going down fighting, and playing for someone else to lose.

Even though para tipped his hand, it was OBVIOUS that Baden was going to be killed. He was a 2 card turtle in a game with 3 other 1 card turtles.

The move Baden made was his way of saying "I don't care if I die, I just don't want para to kill me."

Because there was no strategy in the move whatsoever, it was just slam para with everything he had and leave 3 easy cards to the player who moved next. If para had not said anything, Baden would have continued to turtle and para would have killed him ... resulting in an exchange of "gg's". Why does the fact that para said something make it "ok" to suicide when there was absolutely no clear strategic move or chance of survival. At that point you hope for a block and go down with honor.

In addition, you should KNOW that he is going to kill you next ... even if he didn't say anything. The verbal confirmation should mean nothing. Your not a noob spazzing out because you don't know better. You know what your doing out there ... it was a malicious move plain and simple.
Ok, that was the first good response here. I am not stubborn and will consider your arguments.

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Post by WhirlPlaid » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:43 pm

This is a long running argument that goes back as far as I have been in the community and probably longer.

I find it very simple: NEVER SUICIDE.

Why? Well, if you suicide, you can't win and winning is the only reason to play. Also, if you suicide, you alter the outcome of the game which ruins the fun for those that have fought hard and played fair.

Board flipping is selfish, rude, and affects the game for ALL that are playing, not just the suicider and their victim.

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Post by paranoiarodeo » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:51 pm

I find it very absurd: WHY DO WE ALWAYS LOOK AWAY FROM SUICIDERS?

(Never punish 'em. Never shame 'em.)

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Post by Schroberts » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:52 pm

WhirlPlaid wrote:I find it very simple: NEVER SUICIDE.
Amen. I knew I liked that Whirly guy for a reason :)

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:37 pm

Dominator wrote:I was in the game. Baden's move was completely out of line and un-necessary.

There is a difference between going down fighting and playing for someone else to lose.

Even though para tipped his hand, it was OBVIOUS that Baden was going to be killed. He was a 2 card turtle in a game with 3 other 1 card turtles.

The move Baden made was his way of saying "I don't care if I die, I just don't want para to kill me."

Because there was no strategy in the move whatsoever, it was just slam para with everything he had and leave 3 easy cards to the player who moved next. If para had not said anything, Baden would have continued to turtle and para would have killed him ... resulting in an exchange of "gg's". Why does the fact that para said something make it "ok" to suicide when there was absolutely no clear strategic move or chance of survival. At that point you hope for a block and go down with honor.

In addition, you should KNOW that he is going to kill you next ... even if he didn't say anything. The verbal confirmation should mean nothing. Your not a noob spazzing out because you don't know better. You know what your doing out there ... it was a malicious move plain and simple.
Ok.

I accept that point of view. Especially since you were in the game as a player I always respected so far.

I was irritated by the announcement to get killed anyway next round. With the hand on the trigger and still some ammunition it was tempting to "waste" and die. I had to decide within seconds.

My decision was wrong. I regret that deeply.

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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:24 pm

I am a bit confused. We talked about a single turn and a basic strategic question in a game. I admitted meanwhile that it was a fault.

Big Drama! I get blamed now as a player even worse than Jerry T? That is hilarious.

Did Jerry T. ever admit a fault?

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Post by Big Will E Style » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:55 pm

While I agree this is typical Baden and should never be done, I do disagree with the boot since it was a single game instance and was only done because the host got screwed.

Also this is a pretty common move by magpie and usually people's response is you shouldn't have lined him up.

Baden, you are pretty much a suicider with a lack of strategy so I'm not sure why you're so offended.

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Post by paranoiarodeo » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:10 pm

Big Will E Style wrote: I do disagree with the boot since it was a single game instance and was only done because the host got screwed.
Also this is a pretty common move by magpie and usually people's response is you shouldn't have lined him up.
Let there be no doubt:

1. I woulda booted Baden last week too, when I wasn't playing. Nice try, BWE.
2. magpie knew when he'd lost fair and square. Sabotaging newbies? Oh, sure. Veterans? Never.

(But maybe that's just my head exploding ego talking again.)

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:29 pm

paranoia rodeo wrote:...Sabotaging newbies? Oh, sure. Veterans? Never....
I sabotage nobody. Especially I would not differ newbies and veterans.

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Post by Kude » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:37 pm

is that cause you sorta are both?

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Post by magpie » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:11 pm

while not being there in the game my response might have been ok im gunna die, hey parra can you kill me last if hit the other turtles. which not only gives parra 2 easy cards he gets another 1 as well. all for hopefully letting me die in 5th or 4th that is.

turtle eat turtle responce

my 2 cents worth

:D

also might have hit you too though most likely the above response

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Post by mud » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:02 pm

I don't usually talk strategy.

Mainly because I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to play. As long as you aren't cheating as defined in the limited rules I support Baden to do what he did and I support Para to give him the boot. Part of the game is the things we say and if you line someone up or say you plan to kill someone you might get results you don't like. (shock.) Also if you do something that the host dosent like you also might get results you don't like. Live with it. If you want to turtle, good on ya; if you want to suicide, power to you; If you want to randomly smash your armies in to anyone playing the color red, enjoy. but don't be surprised if no one plays with you.

Play the people you want to and play the way you want to and tell anyone that says you are playing wrong to piss off.

At least we have a bonafide forum war between baden and para and all is right in the universe again. It was starting to get all twilight zone in this place.

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Post by Deep Blue » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:47 am

:pop

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Post by imapickle » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:52 am

Suiciding is not good play, whethere you are baden or magpie or anyone else or whether the person you suicide is a complete beginner or the grandfather of lux.

Lining people up might be a bad move if someone can prevent it by hitting your stack or popping income or something, since it is provoking those (logical) moves. But if there is no way of preventing the kill, then it is simply a good move. The best hope for the victim is that someone blocks. If that is not possible then hope they make a pathing mistake, miss a turn or something, ie. best not to suicide.
I would say that in a desperate situation, any move that confuses the pathing of the attacker is to be considered, even if it involves a bit of asshattery. If not feasable, then id just do nothing and wait.

Thats my take on it.

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Post by Rhye » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:08 pm

To answer the real question (in the most basic of ways):
Baden wrote:Is it unfair to suicide after an obvious threat?
Yes

A justified suicide is so incredibly rare, perhaps the only time when it can be considered justified would be in a team game setting if a suicide on your end means victory for your partner.

Now, I was not present at this game..... I only simply read the thread. But, I'm not taking anyone's bias into account, nor am I taking into account what anyone said on this thread. I'm just answering your question, and "an obvious threat" is not a good reason to suicide.

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