Is it unfair to suicide after an obvious threat?

Game of universal domination. New dice available free upon request.
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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:19 pm

I just wanna double back and emphasize a few things here, so they aren't lost in the general discussion:

1. I don't think it's fair to equate Baden's behavior, last night or more generally, with magpie's. I'm magpie's second most common opponent with ~800 games, many of which were weekend chases during the golden years of competitive Lux. I believe I can speak better than almost anyone else about his style of play. He never liked being "lined up" by clumsy newbies, and would often preemptively retaliate, in order to teach them a lesson. Did I always agree with his "magcratic" method? Of course not. Did I laugh? Oh, sure. But most importantly? His moves usually forced newbies to play the game better. His way of saying: "Don't position yourself so that you can only kill one other player. If you cash, and plan on killing next round, then place armies where you are able to attack several targets." Duh. Good players win more often 'cause of such flexibility. Newbies will remain newbies if they're always targeting "scary" veterans or anyone with "too much" RAW.

2. magpie never would let himself get stuck in a FOUR TURTLE game. Seriously. As he said above, he'd kill off one of the other turtles, assuming it wouldn't change the balance of power. He was smart enough to know how the turn order, card counts, army totals, etc., would determine the outcome of the game, and would only place kill when it was fair to all players involved. Oldschool, indeed.

3. I was positioned to kill three or four turtles, not just Baden. Was he was the obvious target? Absolutely, 'cause he offered the best "kill value" based on his army and card counts. Frankly, Baden shouldn't have been stupid enough — yes, stupid! — to turtle with two cards in a four turtle game, and not expect to die first. He put himself in that situation, and had no one to blame but himself.

4. Baden's move was not strategic. He wasn't trying to give himself a fighting chance of survival. It was an intentional, selfish, one hundred percent, down to his last army, sorta suicide. End of story. Echoing Dom's previous comment: "I don't care if I die, I just don't want para to kill me." That's the essential truth here. Don't forget it. Furthermore: Do that more than once to the same player? Griefing. Do that too often against several players? General asshattery.

5. Baden's so called "apology" isn't one of remorse or regret. He's unhappy that he was banned from a popular room of experienced classic players. He's embarrassed by the public ridicule in this thread. In other words, he's backing down 'cause he's been shamed. Will this incident and conversation change his behavior in the future? If you think so, then I've gotta bridge I'd like to sell you. Good condition. Great price. Pics on request.

(Bonus: 6. No one else in Lux can ruin a decent classic room faster than Baden.)

∞ paranoiarodeo shrugs ∞

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:42 pm

paranoiaordeo wrote:I just wanna double back and emphasize a few things here, so they aren't lost in the general discussion:

While Para wrote this I read another 100 pages of the biography of Field Marshal Blücher:

"The Hussar General: The Life of Blucher, Man of Waterloo"

"A popular German idiom, "rangehen wie Blücher" ("attack it like Blücher"), meaning that someone is taking very direct and aggressive action, in war or otherwise, refers to Blücher."

Perhaps I was influenced a bit by that spirit.

I refrain from discussing these six arguments. It is great drama at first glance. But and second glance it is another example how Para makes a mountain out of a molehill.

"From the sublime to the ridiculous is only a step". A classic quote of Napoleon after a defeat in a battle vs. Blücher.

But I admit that your lengthy comment has a strategic background you practice since I played vs. you.

Your game works better of course if nobody molests you. Magpie, Smedz or Shopi for example were players who played different. So you soft soap your neighbors who are not courageous enough to hit your oftenly almost undefended EU-border early.

So it was in the game we discuss here. I remember well: You took EU hastily and had partly only 1 army as defense at border. The guy in AF had 3 already but did not attack your border with his additional armies coming. Why?

Because you would have booted him as well and crucified him here with an even more explicit memorandum of possibly ten argumentative points.

I call that artifice of war. Another part of your artifice is avoiding to play on the classic battlefield you dislike. You never played a single 5,5,5 game vs. shopi for example. If you ever did you would not whine here like that. But possibly you don't even know what I am talking about. His 5,5,5 games were all brutal battles. Just attacking bonus and borders without mercy. But after the game there was never such a whining. You just sayed: "gg".

You take that all a bit too serious. Your irony and forced smile are part of your strategy.

(NOTE: Edited by accident. Original content above. No changes.)

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Baden wrote:Your game works better of course if nobody molests you. Magpie, Smedz or Shopi for example were players who played different. So you soft soap your neighbors who are not courageous enough to hit your oftenly almost undefended EU-border early. So it was in the game we discuss here. I remember well: You took EU hastily and had partly only 1 army as defense at border. The guy in AF had 3 already but did not attack your border with his additional armies coming. Why?
Pure fantasy. You're just making stuff up now.

(I took EU before anyone else had a cont. My borders were never ones. I had 42 armies by round five before cashing.)

Baden wrote:Because you would have booted him as well and crucified him here with an even more explicit memorandum of possibly ten argumentative points.
Weak cont popping is a legitimate part of the game, you slanderous fool.

(I often attack weak continents and I applaud others who do so when appropriate too.)

QOTW wrote:dustin: 555 sucks
dustin: no reason to kill people
QOTW wrote:Mazza: are u still goin on bout 5,5,5
Mazza: hey Baden, we all used to sleep in the woods before some smart guy invented beds
Image

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:34 pm

Para: "I took EU before anyone else had a cont. My borders were never ones."

Exactely. But you would have cried if some player would have attacked your non-existing borders in time.

"dustin: 555 sucks"

It is still better than "hazard" games some bad players win by pure luck due to a lucky start.

"Mazza: are u still goin on bout 5,5,5"

No idea what he might contribute? Did he ever play a 5,5,5?

I doubt that.

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:47 pm

paranoiarodeo wrote:...Weak cont popping is a legitimate part of the game, you slanderous fool. ...
I just said that. Fine that you agree.

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Post by nimrod7 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:36 am

1. As a two card turtle you're just asking to get killed at the first opportunity.

2. In this situation (four turtle game), I would try my best to kill one of the other turtles in hopes of finishing at a higher position (5th instead of 6th).

3. As far as a host booting suiciders, some players have a reputation for ruining games and killing rooms. I definitely side with the host booting/banning when a repetitive board flipper suicides.

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Post by Enzo1997 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:18 am

Baden wrote: Your game works better of course if nobody molests you. Magpie, Smedz or Shopi for example were players who played different. So you soft soap your neighbors who are not courageous enough to hit your oftenly almost undefended EU-border early.

So it was in the game we discuss here. I remember well: You took EU hastily and had partly only 1 army as defense at border. The guy in AF had 3 already but did not attack your border with his additional armies coming. Why?
Baden... psst Baden... Classic isn't about continents. Shh, it is a big secret.

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:27 pm

Nimrod7 wrote:...
2. In this situation (four turtle game), I would try my best to kill one of the other turtles in hopes of finishing at a higher position (5th instead of 6th).
...
I was not in the position to do so.
Enzo1997 wrote:
Baden wrote: Your game works better of course if nobody molests you. Magpie, Smedz or Shopi for example were players who played different. So you soft soap your neighbors who are not courageous enough to hit your oftenly almost undefended EU-border early.

So it was in the game we discuss here. I remember well: You took EU hastily and had partly only 1 army as defense at border. The guy in AF had 3 already but did not attack your border with his additional armies coming. Why?
Baden... psst Baden... Classic isn't about continents. Shh, it is a big secret.
It is your secret. It is not a huge advantage but of course the continent bonus may be decisive.

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Post by pls » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:56 pm

el toro wrote:Drama, drama, drama

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GFips
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Post by GFips » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:43 pm

today happened in bio room:

i (4 cards) prepared obviously for a kill of player X for the next turn for the case he cannot cash on 4 cards (after my turn).

He really could not cash and then decided to burn all his men on me (also he never had any chance to kill me as i had double of his men over the several continents).

He told me in chat, that it was obvious that i prepared to kill him, so he prefered to suicid on me. If he would not have done, so i would have killed him next and probably won the game. His hope was probably, that the player next in turn kills me first and them him. So i can even understand him a very little bit too. So in final he got 6th and me 5th after next turn.

The name of player x does not matter (just: it was NOT Baden).

So i think that question Baden put in the threat is still interesting to discuss!

I personally think, suiciding ist never a good solution. Nevertheless it seems to be quite popular in lux and there seem to be others who think that a suicid is quite ok in such a situation ...

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:55 pm

gfips wrote:The name of player x does not matter (just: it was NOT Baden).
It matters to me. Both as host and moderator.

∞ paranoiarodeo asks for more info via private message ∞

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Big Will E Style
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Post by Big Will E Style » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:58 pm

Amen. I've been an advocate of punishing the actions as much as the reactions for awhile now. Glad to see it!

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Post by Dominator » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:22 pm

Big Will E Style wrote:Amen. I've been an advocate of punishing the actions as much as the reactions for awhile now. Glad to see it!
Exactly!

Anyone who remembers the origin of the terms "romacide" and "pophat" know that I'm a fan of this as well!

:clap:

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Samuel99
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Post by Samuel99 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:20 pm

GFips:I personally think, suiciding ist never a good solution. Nevertheless it seems to be quite popular in lux and there seem to be others who think that a suicid is quite ok in such a situation ...


I think you nly see suicide in BIO ,its not like its popular on all the maps.

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:41 pm

Samuel99 wrote:I think you nly see suicide in BIO ,its not like its popular on all the maps.
Suicide was very common in Rome throughout 2008 and 2009. MOTW too in late 2009 and 2010.

(Know your Lux history.)

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Samuel99
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Post by Samuel99 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:48 pm

I was speaking right now as were today november 22th 2011 ,not about last year or any other year before.

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mud
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Post by mud » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:31 am

Last time I checked a suicide is not against the rules. Has this changed? If it has, what is considered a suicide? In my experience the definition varies as greatly as the number of players.

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Post by soundboy » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:52 am

I was in Bio for less than a minute yesterday - and my eyes were immediately treated to a blatant suicide on George874 and insults related to noobery.

Was it just perfect timing? My experiences say "Nay".

:smt020

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Post by nimrod7 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:44 am

Singular suicides are not against the rules. Continuous suicides are "griefing" or "general asshattery".

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Marauder
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Post by Marauder » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:43 am

I agree that habitual shit play should be dealt with accordingly.

∞ Marauder wonders why the multi reg "Pro" suicider is still allowed to walk the ghetto streets ∞

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mud
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Post by mud » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:11 am

Than we should call it what it is and not confuse it with a strategic suicide.

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Post by GFips » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:21 am

Nimrod7 wrote:Singular suicides are not against the rules. Continuous suicides are "griefing" or "general asshattery".
If it is not against the rules, is it ok for a host to boot a suicider anyway or is this than even a missuse of host privileges?

I think some official clearification and some more detailed rules would help to make it easier for the host to behave correct and also for the players. I think we all (or at least most of us) agree, that a (single) suicid is never a good style of play, but in the heat of the game sometime we all do unrational things. At least clear rules would at least help what is allowed and what not and maybe prevent some actions, when players know it is against the rules.

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Post by dollabillz » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:34 am

Mud wrote:strategic suicide.
?

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Post by mud » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:51 am

A lot of the play in the game operates under assumptions. For example if I pop this players countries they may retaliate. In this way there are unspoken mutual understandings about consequences. If a player does something which will almost certainly end my chances of winning a game I am thinking about winning the next 10 games with that player not the game at hand. In this way my suicide is meant as a lesson to maximize my chances of winning in the long term not short.

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Post by dollabillz » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:10 pm

lol

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paranoiarodeo
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Post by paranoiarodeo » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:48 pm

Gotta love the deft switch between third and first person.

∞ paranoiarodeo there theres mud ∞

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Post by Deep Blue » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:33 pm

I would say anyone has the right to suicide.
Whatever the reason.
lack of respect, teaching, to dumb to fuck,....
there is no point in fighting a battle without winning some may say.
SURE
THAT WILL TEACH HIM!
ofc there is.

I know I'm not the perfect judge.
I will never be a host and boot someone.
I always believed in free choise, and I still do.
I had friends taking heroine next to me, and it wasnt that I didn't care, I just couldt say: I DECIDE WHATS GOOD FOR YOU.

I guess i'm not the father type. I'm not the guy with the garden,
and the apple, and the rules.
Last edited by Deep Blue on Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dollabillz
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Post by dollabillz » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:49 pm

also this:

Image

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Deep Blue
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Post by Deep Blue » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:57 pm

I 'm sorry but booting anyone(lauren99, meatbat, ghetto) even the worst players, for me is a sign of weakness and power whatever.
I deal with players like that every day and I LOVE THEM.
At least they got balls.

People who don't like scratshes shouldnt drive/buy a Porshe
Dont fuck with me policy= really MTV

my motto:

DONT BOOT, SWALLOW

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Mike
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Post by Mike » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:26 am

Para / Baden - Would you two just sleep with each other and get it over - the rest of us are tired of walking on egg shells around you, with this whole sexual tension overtone.... it's just making the rest of us uncomfortable.

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