In defence of KCF

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RogueMonk
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In defence of KCF

Post by RogueMonk » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:12 pm

Somebody needs to step-up and challenge the farce of a suspension that came against KCF by poor moderation:

Here are some reasons the ban is suspicious:
- a ban by a mod playing in the game he is moderating
- a ban by a mod who incited conflict by selective booting/muting in a provocative way
- a ban against an aggressive playstyle
- a ban against bad dice
- a ban against a mute (very debatable)
- no warning provided
- no mega-mute to defuse the situation

This adds up to some very suspect moderation.

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Bean
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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Bean » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:34 pm

Oh good grief. Anyone who knows me knows I play for fun and garner no benefits from rankings. Not that anyone garners any benefits. Anyway, KCF has been under some critical attention, RM. It wasn't like this was just out of the blue. Still, I agree there is something suspect about the tactic of booting. I'm not sure I'd do that again. So, yeah, debatable, but also a debater would not have too much difficulty with either side.

Player: "I'm going to target X."''
Mod: "Oh, well then why not just target you and boot you then, to spare us all the impending rule violation?"
Player: "Oh, my bad, I already muted him so I am sure not to hear what he has to say."

Not sure what's so suspicious about a three day ban for someone who selectively applies the "be cool" behaviors but then complains when other are not as cool as they like. Constantly gripes about being targeted but constantly expressing his own intent to target. Report spamming. Pretty high on the ole "general asshattery" scale too, but alas I grow more and more doubtful about the usefulness of that term.

KCF appealed. It didn't take much to argue my side, since I am not that invested in it (it's a 3 day ban and any mod action garners significant risk of troll attention), but very little traction was gotten for his appeal. Then a multireg which of course perked up Para's interest and we had to hear about that, "oh no, why is a multireg still playing!?" Apocalypse now! Not sure how long the ban for the multireg will be..... maybe debate about it some more.

All myriad issues here are debatable, sure. However, when you try to mute the mod who is trying to make a point to you about a rule violation (not to mention the previous failed attempts to reason with you), and find you already muted him but forgot, the debate topic seems comparatively worse than many other much better ones. How many debates can we give our full effort to?

Keep debating Rogue. If you meant this as trolling, let his footer serve to disavow any claim or warranty that this discourse in anyway sustains trolls or is nutritious for anyone really. Bean does not feed the trolls. And no, that's not a thing.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by getalong2018 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:28 pm

" If you meant this as trolling ..."

Bottom line, Bean can insult Rogue with impunity, for questioning his authority, because Rogue can't respond without Bean's approval.

(Forum probation does not improve long term forum culture; only serves as convenient, selfish censorship.)

:torch:

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Bean » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 am

Is this Getalong 2018 for real? or Para? Or KCF?

Why is that the bottom line? What does anything in this forum have to do with the bottom line?
I didn't approve RM's post. Maybe another did. I also think it may really be debating and not trolling. oh, wait, there is no point to your post. ohhhhhhhh. I approved your post anyway, but I hope that gives me some impunity. Side note: Where can I spend this impunity?

Typical of a certain Troll, the argument is not really an argument but a simple antagonistic assertion (typical, even before you became mainly a troll). Assertions are not arguments. Asserting things more contemptuously does not make them arguments or more relevant assertions. It's funny how the most basic flaw can go unnoticed for so long.

Guy puts a lot of time into Lux, along the way managing to develop in some nifty features and host some cool events, managing to show some intense passion, focus, and dedication. He hoped to buy it and make it his own, since the owner seemed much less passionate with it. Deal fails. Guy takes the Troll path. There; the whole story, but with a very long tedious epilogue.

Have you moved on? Have you done anything with your own self? Wait, is this off topic. FIPS, split this thread quick!

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Bean » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:06 am

You missed the most suspicious part, RM. While it is unfortunate that all regulation must be "selective" just as an immutable fact, and also unfortunate that folks would whine about such (have we all really that limited a grasp on organizing, regulation, and reality?), you missed that KCF is a fluent English user. Why can't bean get into some corrective action on such reluctant readers as Malik and Jule? Very unfair moderation is so selective.

In summary, overall, the KCF 3-day ban very suspect. Impacts?

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by PJB » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:20 am

KCF's ban was not only based on that single game but also about his previous behavior over the last months since his other multireg account flabbydaddy was perma banned.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by landlord » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:35 am

I would like to to say something

KCF is aggressive player yes I may not agree with him about a lot of things but theres a bigger issue here

that it became a mods vs Players and thats the issue cause i believe banning KCF its to make him pay for everything that happened in the past two weeks

I mean are you really banning him for target players theres way more bad players who target on almost every game no need to mention their names

as MODS said that BIO is the wild west and you cant control ass-hatting ( deep blue words) so how can you ban one players and not others ??

and really to be honest theres way more terrible players who target much worst than cat i dont believe by enforcing the rules with only banning KCF is the right results but its only my opinion


I really hope we can stop the MODS vs Players and everyone should try to make this game better by stop fighting each others

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Bean » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:24 am

It's a good idea, LL, but not sure how many volunteers you'd get for this activity if the volunteers could not even play. KCF was banned for 3 days and has not returned. He multiregged with getalong2018. Para or some other troll highjacked his name for a forum account, so now any mod, like me, who is not a programmer or hacker, cannot even know his communication from para's. He should just stick with KCF. Hopefully he'll email and not keep trying to use backchannels.

3 days. He threatened someone right in front of me. I don't believe I am under an obligation to overlook something like that just because I did not get others who are worse (the "selective" argument in its weak form) or because I'm in the game. A cop catches the speeder he sees. Muting is not a get out of anything free card. I would read any argument on this point carefully. In fact, we have gotten others much worse than KCF and we avoided getting other aggressive players who were just being high-jacked by enemies. I am the most dovish of the mods (except maybe Blue) on the question of in game aggression. I'm still curious about in game checks on player targeting and whatnot, but this one did not have a great effect because it took out two of six players and so the game was ruined anyway. Not that many games are not routinely ruined by bad behavior, but the point of in game intervention would be to save the game, else why not just whine and punish on the side or using a ban. Anyway, KCF could discuss, debate, and defend, but he muted, multiregged, and moaned instead, and continues to believe I was just bullying him capriciously .

I think his aggression goes a little too far into asshatting and sometimes board flipping, but respect you are in his games a lot and your observation counts in my view. I do sort of wonder you might be more dovish than you ought to be out of worry over population size, but whatever. Eyes on him now. Hopefully progress to be made. 3 days is a mild thing, but sure a warning would have been better. I have tried to warn this guy in the past, however, and he is one of those "never guilty" types. He also damaged my patience a good bit with his persistence on the multireg. It will be hard even to want to play with him, but then he doesn't prefer the same maps as I do.

I think I might advocate a clear definition of targeting put in to the rules and that it be a very strict one. Such things take time to get consensus and then to implement. Meanwhile, I think I'll continue demanding respect and clear communication as much as I can. If anyone wants to develop an argument that a person ought go easy on non responsive rule violators for their non responsiveness (e.g. the old muting-the-mod gambit, or the ignore in chat, or the ignore the PM/email. ), I'd read it. I think the burden of proof is on that side. I should not have to go in to the mod lounge and state my case to get the whole pack on my side before stopping something in whatever way I can. I still think critique and analysis of each action after the fact can be productive. I spent time on this both in the mod lounge and now here publicly. But the stakes are not that high and I don't get much out of this, so accountability is no huge issue. see rules: "Enforcement: Moderators endeavor to enforce these rules using persuasion, warnings, mutes, boots, bans, and suspensions as appropriate in their judgment." I stand by this and hopefully improve my judgment always.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:26 am

I'm honestly not sure whats going on.
I got a 3 day ban. This came with no warning. bean boot me from 2 time before my turn in 2 games. Then ban me. I am not trying to fight a mod, I just think this is purely unfair. If mods cannot control their use of power, maybe dont play? Lux is my medacine to stay sane at work. bean, i love you. I just want to play lux, please? I had stopped doing all the things pjb asked, and then randomly bean might have had a bad day and i got ban? No hard feelings, please just let me play.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by PJB » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:30 am

What are you talking about? youre 3 day ban is over (for now). You should try youre killercatfish account not the getalong2018.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:34 am

I am talking about the circumstances of my 3 day ban. I am honestly nervous to play as killercatfish. I am trying to find out why I was getting booted and why I got ban so that it wont happen again.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by PJB » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:35 am

If its not clear now it will never be clear for you.
Im glad youre not denying youre getalong2018
Last edited by PJB on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:38 am

PJB, why the passive aggressiveness? I am a player in a game you are a moderator for. Are you saying it is clear that mods can simply do as they please? You are saying that the mods decided killercatfish should not be allowed to play anymore?

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by PJB » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:39 am

No one said that. Please stop the drama.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:41 am

I am not causing drama.... i was boot from games before my turn. Then I was ban. I simply want to know how I can play without this happening?

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Deep Blue » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:44 am

Hi Killercatfish,

As bean stated before this ban was long overdue. You really have to see this more in general. I think the topic kcf popped up in the mod loung around september. There were the issues with your other account and then the problems you and PJB had. Every week something new popped up. Complaints of targeting, suiciding, not respecting mods,...Know that I (and others) advocated a long time on your behalve. In those to months I even supported your candidancy to become a mod. At some point the moderating stops and the hammer needs to go down. I believe we lean towards a softer approach and take great thought and consideration in punishing someone. We let most violations of the rules just pass, to keep the game fun and entertaining for all.

cheers deep

:scooter :scooter

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:48 am

How do I take away from the lux experience? If anything I bring players since someone is there to help get a room going.... come on Deep Blue. How is a ban for me long coming? This is ridiculous.

In january I tried to retire killercatfish with flabbydaddy. But apparently that is illegal (why allowing players to pay $10 is the most anti american thing ever, so maybe that is why?)

Anyway. I just want to play lux. How do I do that without being boot from games and ban?

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Deep Blue » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:13 pm

Well you could start playing under your own name again, instead of trolling the board with a clear vet account. Your name still has some credit in the community I believe.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:16 pm

Looking above, it seems people think I am posting as getalong2018?

If anyone knows me, then you will accept this: I swear on my childrens' lives that that is not me. Im assuming its para, cause thats the one who does that stuff?

Look through the forums, in the past I have simply posted about hosting...cause I love this game.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by PJB » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:18 pm

No one thinks the forum account getalong2018 is yours anymore.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:24 pm

the getalong2018 player isnt mine either. I took the time to take a break from lux. had some sick kids to take care of. Just catching up now on all this drama.

honestly, i just want to know how we can prevent mods from booting players... I understand if bean was having a bad day and took it out on me, god knows I have been to enough marriage therapy over the years due to bad days leading to saying/doing something dum.

I love you all. Love me back?

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by PJB » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:29 pm

Wait wait ho ho...
The getalong2018 player account is not yours? Sure dude....

Stop lying and trolling!!

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:32 pm

Not trolling, honestly in here looking for how I can be a luxer that will not get boot during game or ban. honest pjb. you and I pm'd each other, and I listened and did as you asked. Then this booting and ban randomly occurred.

If someone is pretending to be me in the forums, isnt it more likely someone also tried to pretend to be me in the games?
1) play aggressive
2) say gla

thats me, idk.

I honeslty dont know when mods because hostile toward me. Seriously, i'd love to help you mod. I love the game. this is not sarcastic. Why else would I still be here after 12 years?

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Bean » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:36 pm

Killercatfish. Welcome back. It's certainly frustrating when someone professes not to understand the problem, but I understand it's possible you may really not get it. In this case, it wasn't that hard to get. You specifically said you were going to target another player and I decided to try and stop it. You tried to mute me but found you already had. As RM eloquently put it, there may have been suspicious elements of the ban (me in the game, booting you too, no warning). Nevertheless, it was a real violation I tried to address. Now you know there is something there and we can work to understand it. It doesn't mean you will be surrounded by angels in the games, but at least you will be among the nice guys. I like that you are outgoing and positive. I think it would be fun to be on a team with you in some game. I have no particular grudge against you or anything like that, but just a little frustration about a few things as mentioned (report spamming, assuming the innocent victim stuff, persisting in the multireg, etc). I hope you continue to develop the aggressive play style. The "be cool" game is horrible. For my part, I'll keep open communication and continue to advocate for improvements and games. CHeers.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by PJB » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:40 pm

You talk about love, peace and get along with eachother but you do the opposite. We are discussing now how long you we need to suspend you for circumventing your 3 day ban.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:40 pm

I have been playing with Upeng2005 since before you joined lux, bean. I would just appreciate being treated the same as all the other players.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:41 pm

PJB wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:40 pm
You talk about love, peace and get along with eachother but you do the opposite. We are discussing now how long you we need to suspend you for circumventing your 3 day ban.
What opposite did I do? I am honestly just trying to play lux pjb.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by RogueMonk » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:21 pm

Bean wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:36 pm
As RM eloquently put it, there may have been suspicious elements of the ban (me in the game, booting you too, no warning). Nevertheless, it was a real violation I tried to address.
(The following are not necessarily a response to the quoted material, but some general thoughts and clarifications.)

I am not against moderation; I have a problem with poor, petty, and personal moderation.

In this case, we are being told the suspension came to expression with a history behind it. That is not what was recorded in the Moderation Log. Helpful moderation would have made that explicit, and also noted the warnings provided to KCF on his player page. That would be transparent.

Also, helpful moderation could have noted the violation in the mod lounge, asked an other moderator to discern if it requires a suspension and then to hand it out. For example: "X, y, and z happened in a game with KCF. Here is the chat log. However, I was actually playing in that game which does certainly cause a conflict of interest. Since we have been talked about kcf here several times, would one of you other mods take a look at this and see if you feel it warrants a suspension. Thanks."

One final comment, it is regrettable that this thread can be interpreted as an "anti-bean" thread. My original intension was to go on the record about some of my concerns here specifically, but with more general reference to moderation style and protocol (like a "case-study" in poor moderation).

I regret if that has strained our (online)friendship, bean.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by killercatfish » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:24 pm

I deleted lux. You win boys. Ciao. Happy Holidays, Happy New Year.

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Re: In defence of KCF

Post by Deep Blue » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:31 pm

Feel free to pop in anytime. You will be missed.

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