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Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:54 pm
by landlord
how about make weekly rank base on all maps after all it seems more fair there are not enough games played in what you try to do

Re: Weekly Chase

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:11 pm
by Bean
The idea is that the game declined because of the thing you propose. It drives everyone to play the shortest map that churns points the most. There is no way it's a good idea to compare short 7 min games to 20 min games by including them in the rank. If you are nervous about your bio rank, maybe propose just a weekly bio rank. It is not a particularly credible rank either at these levels. Marketing is the main issue now. We have an okay system but still a tendency toward bullying. Nevertheless, not many people coming in to get bullied anyway, so....

Re: Weekly Chase

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:38 am
by landlord
It is not about me worry about my rank im sure if you look closely you wont see any progress in what you did i saw many players left since you took off bio from the weekly chase

Re: Weekly Chase

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:22 am
by Bean
Bio will be on the chase occasionally. Don't worry. The problem with making all maps count is that it is not a fair or coherent ranking. It was like comparing the sprints to the distance in swimming or track. In some ways, it was like ranking swimmers against golfers. It is cool if everyone in the pool of ranked players does the same thing, but not cool if only the ones doing the quick, dirty, and easy think have a shot in the tournament. Bio is not some brilliant map. It's a short map, plain and simple. Why play a long map when you can play a short one if anything you do counts for points in the tournament? That's why it became popular, its brevity first and the effects of the brevity second. Take away the monopoly on the weekly chase, and it is less popular. I'm okay with that. We have not stopped hosting it, and indeed other mods and the Lux owner all like bio as far as I know. I feel bad I can't help make more games in it, but I just don't like it so I don't want to spend my time playing it or moderating it.

Nothing significant has happened since changing the chase. I looked back at data going 3 years and at no point since bio finished its cull of the other maps in the context of the old incoherent ranking system did it become a growing concern or increase in popularity. I waited until very few players were left and advocated for coherence in the ranking system. I worked very hard on it and I managed to create a coherent change that is good and that you supported. Your advocacy now is not respectfully well developed. It does not account for any of the discussion of this subject over the years and just does an easy few sentences like nothing that has happened in the past matters. You have time to play a lot of games, but not enough interest actually to write some thoroughly developed arguments.

The data don't support your implicit argument that a big harm has happened from our making the rankings system better. Maybe 20% fewer bio deux games per month, but that's from an already very low number. It also does not mean a significant number of players departed. Lux is and has been near death. Bio is not on anyone's short list of ideas for making Lux a better place, for retaining more new players, or for gaining new players in the first place. It is not being taken away as an option for play.

If a person needs a weekly rank in order to like Bio Deux, it doesn't say much for it as a map either. You are saying these players needed to be ranked each week against some few others in order to enjoy the 7 minutes of joy per game that is Bio Deux. You can provide your own weekly rank quite easily if you like. Why not go with top 5 players who did the best against Landlord in Bio Deux on Tuesdays in Spring? Fun stuff. Give a sticker.

You can also do other things to help: Follow the rules more assiduously, discontinue bullying, don't use it to force players to choose your "be cool" play protocol. Mentor new players, should any appear.

As I said, the main current issue is marketing. If we do market better, the next barrier to success will be the culture of bullying that many veterans, including sometimes myself, employ to try and affect opponents' play choices to their advantage. You yourself have done it to me and others, Landlord. If you want Lux to be better, try doing things that make it better instead of fighting for the things that made it fall in the first place.

Re: Weekly Chase

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:05 pm
by PJB
landlord wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:38 am
i saw many players left since you took off bio from the weekly chase
I seriously doubt what you are claiming but out of curiosity can you tell me the names of those "many players" that left because of the new rankings please?

Re: Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:37 pm
by landlord
Red Beard
toothpick intel

the list is way bigger and this list is not 100%
but this is just some of the players who play less since it change

Re: Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:53 pm
by landlord
to answer you bean:

I dont feel like its harder to win the weekly chase now its the other way now its much easier than when it was in bio
i did like your approach at the beginning cause myself like many other players think that the game will have a better chance if we make it more fun with others map

but sadly lately ive notice that you just try to control us and not to make the game better

like if i see a move that dosnt make sense i would like tot talk about it when i ask you about it you flip over and start using really bad wards like you cant even spell right when i just reply back to you all good you lost it even more

I really cares about this game i even willing to pay member ship to keep this game alive and in better place than where it is now

but you making the changes you want it only your way and to hate bio and bring it down its wrong too you need to find a way to improve it not only by adding new things in the game but also keep what we have bio is the the most important map and will always be weather you like or not

I do think you are need to be more appreciated for what you do but it need to start from and not only talking about me all day

Re: Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:42 pm
by Bean
It's true, I do try to control behavior, LL. It's really the only purpose of being a mod. I advocate that players do not break the rules. I advocate for a play style that doesn't encourage rule breaking. The dominant play style, what I call "be cool", has some advantages but does encourage bullying and griefing. When I warn a player to stop bullying or griefing, is that inappropriately trying to "control" them?

I do not play bio very much. I do not hate it, but I do not enjoy it enough to make it worth my time. In my opinion, it does not deserve a monopoly or any privilege at all regarding a main weekly ranking or main seeding. If you want it to have its own separate weekly ranking, I support that proposal, but am not sure my support will get you there or how much my opinion even matters.

I do NOT support making Bio Deux the face of Sillysoft hosted maps or ranking ladders. I like a weekly chase that changes. Everyone plays the same map and the rank means something. I support it with moderating effort and by trying to be there for games. Every time I subject myself to the bio room, I feel like I'm working for something I don't like or want. But that doesn't mean much. Plane Crazy only likes to play bio I believe, but he totally agrees with me on play style. I might just go in bio whenever Plane Crazy is there, maybe tempt him to play with me in other maps too. If you support me on play style, I'll try to support you more on bio too but never as the front face of Lux.

If you play with me in another map, I will try not to chat with you about your game, but you DO seem to have a serious commitment to using griefing as a way to control other players' in game behaviors and that just as much a rule violation from you as it is from any of the more famous griefers to remain nameless here. You say it's about me, but I'm not having any effect on your play. It's the same after all this time and after much effort. I am sorry if I used some bad words. I will be more careful in future. We can play 1-2 player games and I'll be cool, compliant, sorry, and all the other lovely unwritten Lux values.

The game overall has very low participation and bio does too. Bio won't make Lux grow or become more attractive. Decrease bullying and other ugliness inside, and make it more attractive in the market outside. Maybe that would work, but it's no certainty that's for sure. I am not in a position to do the marketing and I only barely have an effect on the bullying.


Re: Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:28 pm
by Shockandawe
Expectation vs Reality


You believe yourself/selves capable of increasing participation and competitiveness through player interaction and map selection. That getting the word out on Lux will have some sort of dramatic change to overall participation.


A 10+ year old program from the early days of indie development now competing in a saturated market with much newer products. A program that has been on Steam, the largest virtual marketplace, for long enough to have long experienced any effect marketing would give you. Along with this is the reality that there is zero you as a player can do to impact if a player stays. You can impact if they leave (bullying as you mentioned), but there is no real meat on the bones of Lux to keep anyone playing online. This is a niche of a niche and there are far newer and deeper experiences for people looking for competitive strategic environments.

I have no doubt these same comments will pop up in another 3 months just as it has seemingly every quarter for the last 5 years.

Re: Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 10:31 pm
by Red Beard
I'm with Landlord on this one. I appreciate the effort Bean, but it doesn't seem to be taking off. This place already pretty close to a ghost town. To use your analogy, you don't build a 5 star restaurant in a ghost town. You give locals a shitty diner where they know the owners and can perhaps see a couple of old friends along the way. You may not like bio, but it's reasonably approachable from the stand point of learning the ropes, not the disposition of players. Risk already has a steep learning curve that made it hard for new players to break into. This is part of the reason I think people have always tended to congregate around a handful of maps. It takes a while to learn and get good at a map. As always, just my two cents. I don't really expect that you will switch back to bio, but there it is. Thanks for the effort regardless.

Re: Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:02 am
by Bean
Bio still here. If it were the unique cause, in my mind, of the lame play culture that evolved, I would have tried to kill it directly. I suspected it, but discussion revealed less of a link. Anyway, ranking reform not experimental in my mind. A matter of coherence. Bio did not die back for lack of a chase, or if possible we could give it its own chase. If it dropped off recently, maybe ll got bored. Red, did you leave bio for lack of a ranking monopoly?

Re: Proposal to revert weekly chase to Bio Deux.

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:09 am
by Bean
The bio is not a successful offering that died back when attacked. It is a failed offering that was perhaps slightly propped up by a shiny weekly rank monopoly. It died back a long time ago. It has little record of successful retention. Also, it's still here you nits! Make up you own shiny if you want. Ask d to give it a weekly rank.