Beta Test New Maps

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:06 pm

Perhaps this is a bad idea, but before maps are put into the Plug in managaer, could there be a place where Maps could be submitted to be beta tested?

mbauer · Post by **mbauer** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:58 pm

I think this is a marvelous idea. We could have a group of luxers, much like the mod squad, of map testers. All of whom should NOT be map makers, but only players. These chosen few could then test the maps, suggest changes, and reccomend ones be placed in the plugin manager.

MB

Post by **dustin** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:33 am

I think that this is a good idea. Why don't you think map makers should be part of this mb? I would expect they would be able to give helpful advice.

mbauer · Post by **mbauer** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:29 am

Well if the beta testers are just that, testers, then I suppose it doesn't matter who they are. And yes map makers would probably be able to give more helpful feedback in that case.

My idea would be more of a "commission" of players that would decide what maps get released into the wild and which ones need more work before they would. In that case, I would think map makers might inadvertantly be biased. But maybe not, I'm a pessimistic person.

MB

BarStar · Post by **BarStar** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:45 am

Snyper is a must for this team!

Kef · Post by **Kef** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:38 pm

well, something that might be bitching....

how about letting all those arrows show all at the same time to see if cconnections are made properly?

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:09 pm

What if it was more of a "playtesters group"? Folks willing to try out user maps in online games, but not necessarily the gatekeepers for Plugin Manager access? The prospect of playing with a specific group of players whom makers may feel they know (and respect?), versus releasing it anonymously into the wild, might get make them a little more diligent in getting the bugs out before sharing.

NOTE: This is based on my assumption that the motivation for this thread is that many maps are released with bugs that would have easily been caught with a little playtesting, or that are visually ambiguous.

mbauer · Post by **mbauer** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:46 pm

I think finding bugs is important, however, with the development of the map builder it is becoming rarer and rarer to actually find "bugs" in maps, and the most common bug is as simple as this country can't attack that country but should be able to, very easy to fix. If that's all this group of players are looking for, then it's not really worth it. The system we have now would suffice, just post the bug in the forum.

What I think is more important than bugs, is testing for "playability." Just because a map has no bugs, does not make it playable. There are a lot of maps out there that have really great concepts (Escape from Colditz), but are just unplayable. And could be fixed with a little (or a lot) of refinement. I think this group of luxers should test for playablity as well as for bugs and make reccomendations that might improve playability.

What I mean by playability and what makes a map playable are things like: correctly balanced continents (both value and number of countries), amount of borders, clear rules (if applicable), clear connections, ease of use, intuitiveness. All of these, and more, are important ingredients in a great map. You know, all the stuff you learn at the Preacherman Memorial School of Cartography

MB

BarStar · Post by **BarStar** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:52 pm

mbauer wrote: Preacherman Memorial School of Cartography
MB

ahhh no wonder my maps all suck! I never went to that school!

dammit!

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:24 pm

mbauer wrote:What I think is more important than bugs, is testing for "playability."

Mark, if that's what this is about then I'm all for it. I've played around with some different map ideas (most bad), and have hosted games of them to get some playability feedback. People would either pop in and back out, or would play only one game and leave without much comment. Folks are reluctant to criticize, even when it's solicited. It would be great to have a group willing to offer mapmakers more than just "nice map," like maybe some suggestions.

In hosting test maps, I found that people were more likely to play if the map didn't look all hairy. But it's a waste of effort to prettify a map before knowing if an idea is worth pursuing. Further, if a map requires a theme to be visually intuitive (e.g., WWII Pacific) it's even harder to play test using the general player community. Maps are shared when players connect to a host, but theme files are not.

One must email the theme files to the prospective play tester, and that's more hassle than the casual player will tolerate.

What if we had a beta plugin/theme repository, separate from the Plugin Manager? Or perhaps accessible from the Plugin Manager with a "show beta maps" checkbox?

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:26 pm

I know that a nice theme is part of what makes a map really enjoyable to play. But gameplay should probably come first.

(Yes, could have edited. Trying to get to 100 posts.)

mbauer · Post by **mbauer** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:45 pm

BarStar wrote:ahhh no wonder my maps all suck! I never went to that school!

Did you apply?

Sir Holo wrote: Mark...

Who's Mark?

Sir Holo wrote:read the above statement ya' lazy poop

Here hear Sir Holo, it's like pulling teeth trying to get people to give helpful feedback on a map. That's what I would hope a group of "testers" would provide. It would be their top priority to provide helpful feedback.

I understand it's also difficult to react to a work in progress, but this I don't think should be an issue. The map maker should only submit a map when they think it is complete, the "testers" would then give feedback from there.

I don't think a beta repository would work, because of the same issues you stated above, people are reluctant to offer suggestions, and when they do it's only as deep as "nice map." Unless I'm missing the point of what this repository would do.

MB

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:34 pm

mbauer wrote:I don't think a beta repository would work, because of the same issues you stated above, people are reluctant to offer suggestions, and when they do it's only as deep as "nice map." Unless I'm missing the point of what this repository would do.

Marvin, the "repository" suggestions refers to some mechanism to get a map & theme outside the plugin manager, but thatis easier than what we have now (which is emailing, etc.). Was just of thinking out loud, don't know if it would help.

Post by **dustin** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:00 am

What do you guys think is the best way to setup a place for map feedback to happen? It could be in a private forum section, but then it would be harder for new submittors to get feedback. Otherwise there's email.

It is easy for me to set up some people to be able to download submitted maps before they go 'live' into the plugin manager. That what I do now.

Also, FYI: if you upload a theme using the theme upload page then it will be downloaded onto other's computer's when you host the map and they join. Even thought the map isn't in the plugin manager yet.

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:25 am

dustin wrote:Also, FYI: if you upload a theme using the theme upload page then it will be downloaded onto other's computer's when you host the map and they join. Even thought the map isn't in the plugin manager yet.

Great. That fixes the theme availability issue.

That's the best kind of problem – one you didn't know was solved already.

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:30 am

[quote="dustin"]Since themes are actually available for unreleased maps, would it be enough to host unranked games with a description like "Playtesting a new map. Requesting feedback."?

Better yet, "Playtesting someone else's new map. Requesting feedback."

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:56 am

dustin wrote:What do you guys think is the best way to setup a place for map feedback to happen?

Sorry to keep reposting like an idiot, but here's a thought: Map testing party!

At a designated time, someone could host the party, soliciting current betas of new maps by email just before starting. Unranked, with the aim of playtesting. Most games probably would not be played out to the finish. Mapmakers would contribute to the critique of all of the maps, while gaining a critique of theirs in the process. The room could hold more than 6, since one can see how a map plays by observing others play.

Discussion and suggestions would be encouraged by all, including non-mapmaking guests. The session might possibly start with a thick-skinned maker's map, and a critical shill in the crowd to help get the honest criticisms flowing.

Anyone could host one, and could simply announce it a couple of days in advance, soliciting maps for testing (either by emial or by beta-plugin download).

Discuss.

mbauer · Post by **mbauer** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:31 am

dustin wrote:What do you guys think is the best way to setup a place for map feedback to happen?

hmmmm, I think discussion of the maps is essential, even discussion amongst the map testers themselves. One map tester may have an idea that is totally bogus and the others disagree, in which case that idea should be thrown out or fleshed out. So I would say a private room would be the best idea for that discourse, so that the testers can talk frankly and not worry about inadvertantly hurting someone's feelings. When all comments have been made, then an e-mail or PM could be sent to the map maker, with all necessary comments included.

I think Sir Holo's idea is a good one as well, a sort of open testing to get reactions from players who choose to give them. However, like I said before, getting people to give good feedback on a map isn't easy. I would encourage the people that want to, to feel free to send the testers a PM with their comments, that way they don't have to worry about being brutally honest if necessary. However, the main reason, IMHO, for testing the map this way would be for the map testers to see how the "average joe" player plays the map, that can be a very valuable thing to see.

Dustin wrote:Also, FYI: if you upload a theme using the theme upload page then it will be downloaded onto other's computer's when you host the map and they join. Even thought the map isn't in the plugin manager yet.Sir Holo

This is where I think Sir Holo's plugin repository would work. Here everyone could see all the plugins that are being tested and download the themes in anticiaption of an upcoming testing party, if they so choose. If they don't, and wonder into a testing party then Lux would download the theme for them.

MB

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:57 am

I would like to contribute to the Map Discussions, and testing. I have just begun making a few maps myself, but would like to know more about it, it is very addictive. Please count me in for this.

I agree with MB regarding his points of playability of maps, and discussion is needed to develop balanced maps etc.

I don't know the best method of doing this, I suppose being able to upload maps to the beta site, and discussing it here in this section of the forums and letting it evolve naturally would be easiest. I dont think most people will be interested in it, so it is not like it has to be an exclusive group. I think if you ask the community as a whole, "Do you want to be involved in Testing and Making Maps", most of them would say yes, but over time only a few would stay involved and take the time to contribute. Simply due to the fact that most people I know just like to sit and play classic, and accumulate raw. (and there is nothing wrong with that)

Blind Willie · Post by **Blind Willie** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:22 pm

Sign me up. I for one am getting sick of playing ranked classic games. Raw got old after I realized I couldn't redeem it for beer or smokes. I'm back to playing mostly offline with bots anyway, so I might as well test out some new maps. I love giving constructive criticism -- I don't have the creativity to come up with new maps, but I'll happily offer all the fine tuning suggestions a map maker could ask for.

I like the idea of making them available for testers to download and test with bots first. Then after we get a feel for the map, maybe set up some times to play some unranked games with each other to see how humans play it different than bots. I also like the idea of a private forum to bat around criticisms before passing them on to the mapmaker. No need to kill the mapmaker's buzz with everyone's initial criticisms -- maybe give each new map a week or two of testing and discussion before presenting a trimmed down list of likes and dislikes.

I think this would also be a great way to beta test bots as well as maps.

mbauer · Post by **mbauer** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:43 pm

So Dustin, about how many maps do you get a week? Do you ever turn any down? Are you going to establish some sort of "playtesters club?" If the beta testers get a private room do the stewpid mods get to see it? Can the playtesters club be called "Luxers Against Bertenshaw" so that way we can call it the LAB?

MB

Post by **dustin** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:21 am

The number of submitted maps varies greatly. Normally there are around 1-4 maps in any given week. Some do not make it into the plugin manager. In particular, I have stopped adding versions of classic, unless they are significant in some way (altering continents in not). Yes, I would like to establish a playtester group. I guess a private forum is an easy way to try out. It could be called 'Luxers Advising Bertenshaw' and thus LAB (or perhaps MapLAB).

If anyone wants to participate then please state so concretely in this thread (if you haven't done so already).

Kain Mercenary · Post by **Kain Mercenary** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:55 am

I would enjoy the opportunity to help. I play a lot of the maps offline against the bots. I would gladly help improve the Lux experience by testing maps and/or bots for people.

Kef · Post by **Kef** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:15 am

sure, I'll help to test em if you want

michelle · Post by **michelle** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:20 am

I'll beta some maps

Sir Holo · Post by **Sir Holo** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:50 am

I'm in.

el toro · Post by **el toro** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:33 am

count me in

xanadu · Post by **xanadu** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:25 am

Dont leave me out ...

mbauer · Post by **mbauer** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:47 pm

dustin wrote:It could be called 'Luxers Advising Bertenshaw' and thus LAB (or perhaps MapLAB).

How about 'Luxers Assay Bertenshaw'?

I'd be honored to be in the company of such fine luxers as those whom have posted above me, but only if there is room. Looks like you might have enough already.

MB

Post by **dustin** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:57 pm

Well, I am going to close the topic now. I think it will work better with a few people who are really into it. I'll try and get it set up soon...

Beta Test New Maps

Beta Test New Maps

Theme sharing?

Re: Theme sharing?

Re: Theme sharing?

Map Testing Party!

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