What makes a better overall skilled Luxxer

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What makes a better overall skilled Luxxer

Post by n00less cluebie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:39 pm

OK, there was some discussion in my RAW thread about MOTW, player skill etc. which is not what I'm trying to get at in my RAW thread, so here are those comments, if you want to add to this until the mods lock it. If people are CAREFUL, they could make some constructive points here

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1. Posts that personally attack or insult members are not allowed. If you feel that somebody has been a bad host or player then you may so say, but refrain from insulting them personally. Doing so usually causes the thread to go nowhere anyway.

Note: Rule #1 also means that posts such as "Who is the worst Luxer?" are not allowed, since it can only result in insults and attacks.
Dominator wrote:
Enokrad wrote:
A true skill of a player is to be able to adjust to unforeseen situations and not just keep repeating the same routine over and over.
This is the exactly why I like classic so much. This is the reason why the best classic players are so good.
beetroot wrote: i like how the good classic players can dominate on any map, but if you bring a MOTWer to classic, they all seem to flounder around and then get 5th or 6th
Wink
Dominator wrote: Its because classic is so delicate .. the difference between a good player and a great player is so subtle. On other maps .. where income is the dominating factor .. those subtleties are usually ignored because they are outweighed by income. When a classic player comes in they acknowledge those subtleties and combine the income factor with an understanding of playing position and killing for cards. Which makes all the difference.
Digital Jihad wrote:

^^ Reason why people don't like Classic players.
Nimrod7 wrote: Because they're so good, or because some of them are so arrogant.
bod wrote: The arrogance !

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Post by SnyperEye » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:58 pm

I just gotta say there is no great skill needed for people that only play Classic and those people who only play Roman Empire 2. At least Bio changes the angles of the maps. If you only play and stick with one map and you become a great player on that map, Does that mean you have an overall skill of the game...My opinion No....If I played the same map everyday for a year or two I'd better be fricking amazing on that map map too. Practice always makes perfect they say. I dont underestimate some of the top players of classic could easily win over me in there "genre", but if you flip the script and took them out of there classic enviroment and bring them into the other maps would that skill level be a great???

Im eager to see how some of the permanent Classic and roman players handle Manimal's tournament against those revolving players.

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Post by n00less cluebie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:02 pm

So...what are the skill sets that help MOTW achieve greatness? What has the Classic player learned that helps him or her on other maps? Is the experience of a Rome player applicable on any other maps? These are all valid questions. Let's just avoid the "XXXX is a poopypants b/c he doesn't play ZZZZZ"

and before you think about it:
Some clown will have wrote: XXXX is a poopypants b/c he doesn't play ZZZZ

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Post by paranoiarodeo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:40 pm

Snype's contention doesn't hold up under close scrutiny ... the best classic players ... as measured by their six human winning percentage relative to other players ... are just as dominant on other maps more often than not ... and not to burst any bubbles ... but many of the "good" MOTW players have fairly pedestrian %'s across all maps ... if you guys really wanna start diving into specific numbers ... I'll be happy to begin posting them ... but I'm afraid that'll only lead to more arguments and hurt feelings ...

IMHO ... there's seems to be a lot of self-congratulation amongst the MOTW crowd about their open-mindedness ... and some folks seem to believe that playing "new and strange" maps inherently makes anyone a better player ... and sadly that's not true ...

As for cl00bie's general question ... I'm not gonna wax poetic about why the "classic crucible" best prepares players for all the challenges Lux has to offer ... it's self-evident to me ... and I doubt anyone's mind is gonna be changed by my explanation ...

∞ paranoiarodeo shrugs ∞

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Post by Dominator » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:43 pm

n00less cluebie wrote:So...what are the skill sets that help MOTW achieve greatness? What has the Classic player learned that helps him or her on other maps? Is the experience of a Rome player applicable on any other maps? These are all valid questions. Let's just avoid the "XXXX is a poopypants b/c he doesn't play ZZZZZ"


1.) Classic players learn how to kill and path for double/triple/quad/quint kills for CARDS. I always see players on other maps make a single kill and then use the armies for defending their income rather than going after another player. Proper pathing is key when it comes to classic since classic is focused around cards and kills .. you need to learn how to path properly to make clean kills (not to mention multi kills). Careless pathing in classic is a huge mistake .. and players learn to pay attention to those details.

On other maps where income is dominant .. it might not matter if you miss a possible kill because of bad pathing/poor anticipation if you have a high income .. in classic it means game over. When players have a high income they can also make easier kills because their army count is so much higher than everyone elses and they steamroll people.

In classic, most of the time the kills are TIGHT and proper pathing is usually the difference between a kill or miss. Sometimes even 1st and 6th.


2.) Good classic players are great at a cost benefit analysis when determining when and when not to kill. Since the game is centered around kills, players need to know when to GO and when to HOLD. I'm not only talking about when army count is higher than cash, but also how strong opposing players are, how many cards they have, how many cards I have, do I have a wild, where am I in the cash order, how many cards will I have if I miss. All of those things make a huge difference and should be taken into consideration when making a kill.

On income maps people tend to just take income and give players away .. or just kill for the sake of killing (not everyone, but I do see it a lot).


3.) Another attribute that the classic player has, is the ability to anticipate events in the game. As I have said before, classic is centered on making kills. As soon as the game starts the classic player should know who his potential targets are and who may potentially be targeting him/her. This should affect a lot of the decisions made during the game .. about remote placement and farming .. ect. Once players are getting ready to perform kills, classic players place their armies so they are targeting the most people at the same time .. early cashes cannot be predicted so it is important to have as many people lined up as possible when your turn comes around.

So many times I see players defend pointless income on other maps rather than setting up a kill. Or even locking themselves from killing someone who is on 4 cards and then goes to 5. If you do this in classic you wont win. Period.


4.) Classic player are also great at troop conservation and management. Since income is low and cards are high Classic players need to conserve as much troops as possible to avoid being killed. This includes being conservative from the start, to getting those extra 2 guys because you have the card of a territory you own, to just not being reckless.

I always see people act reckless during income based games .. slamming income only to defend it weakly and give it to a stronger player.


5.) DEFENSE is another great thing that classic players learn. Since classic players are expert killers .. they should also be experts on avoiding being killed. This means looking at potential threats and having remotes that are inaccessible to them. You could be blocked by another player or even put extra men behind a choke point so you can't be killed.

On income based maps I have had people kill my remotes because they don't understand why I have it there if I'm not going to use it to pop their income .. people just put all their troops in one spot and don't even think about how much harder it is to be killed if you have multiple groups of troops on the map.


6.) LOCKING. Classic players know all about locks since the map is so small and they either force someone to not card, lose extra men, or prevent a kill. Classic players are extremely aware of how they farm and making sure they don't lock themselves or unlock potential threats.

I always see players on other maps lock themselves by farming .. or unlock players by farming .. I have even won games I shouldn't have because people unlocked me by farming in the wrong spot.




this is the tip of the iceburg .. I could go on for even longer :wink:



Other players might not master all this stuff because of the high income and they don't need to DEPEND on cards. Its way easier to look at the player info box and the income than to sit there and try and analyze the board to get the best possible kills off .. I mean damn there is a lot of stuff to look at and there is only 30 seconds to make a decision and execute it. I would have never learned this stuff without classic .. because mastering the little things is what makes you a better classic player.

Don't get me wrong .. I'm not saying that people who don't play classic are incapable of being good players .. because there are a lot of really really good players who don't play classic. I'm just saying that most players won't learn or pick up on all these things by just playing income based maps.

These are things that can be applied on any map that uses escalating cards .. playing new maps adds a whole new dynamic and twist .. but if you have good basic "lux fundamentals", an understanding of cards, and an understanding of how to play income .. you can play any map well. It has nothing to do with "mastering a map." The only thing to master in a map is knowing the pathing and knowing the income rates. Thats it. Classic is just a great map at developing your skills .. and they can be applied anywhere .. people just prefer the classic map because of its balance.






Good luck reading that
:twisted:
Last edited by Dominator on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Shockandawe » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:50 pm

Perfectly put Dom.

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Post by paranoiarodeo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:51 pm

∞ paranoiarodeo nods in agreement ∞

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Post by beetroot » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:06 pm

word son

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Post by Digital Jihad » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:05 pm

Most of your complaints about income maps seem to be more about people not knowing how to play then any weakness in the map itself. Bio can be a fun and challenging map when you have 6 skillful players, the same as Classic. The difference is its pretty much the same group of people who play in the same Classic room over and over.

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Post by Dominator » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:22 pm

Digital Jihad wrote:Most of your complaints about income maps seem to be more about people not knowing how to play then any weakness in the map itself.
Yes. I think the main issue a map can have is balance and my complaints are with the players.

But, the point is playing and mastering classic has a way of self correcting these issues. Learning to win in classic is tough, especially against certain groups of players. In order to win consistently you are literally forced to pay attention to these details. Players who only play other maps have a tendency to ignore the finer parts of the game .. as they can win/dominate with a good start and healthy set of income. In income maps any player can get into a power position with the right start. Thats why it appeals to noobs. In classic, you won't get into a good position without literally being fed a kill .. or learning the finer points of the game ..

Thats my issue. All this anti-classic stuff is just nonsense .. classic is as much of a part of lux as any other map. I think its good to encourage people to try new things and experiment with new maps But, the way that its being done is just decreasing the overall quality of play and integrity of the ranking system.

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Post by paranoiarodeo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:24 pm

Dominator wrote:But, the way that its being done is just decreasing the overall quality of play and integrity of the ranking system.
∞ paranoiarodeo amens ∞

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Post by dustin » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:40 am

Great post Dom. I added it to the strategy wiki:
http://sillysoft.net/wiki/?Dominators%20Advice

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Post by Claudiu » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:06 am

Maybe this "anti-classic" stuff is not directed towards the map. Maybe it's a defense mechanism against those that try to devalue our map of choice. As for the rest of your post, I agree; but I'd like to add that altough Classic demands an eye for details, other maps that depend more on income requires other qualities that Classic demands less of--such as the perception to think ahead in terms of conflict zones and conquest. Take Rome II as an example: one needs to think ahead of where other players will expand; the areas of conflict; where a player might get strong, where a player might be weakened. This kind of ahead-thinking is less dominant in Classic, because once the territories are established, the game takes its hold on position and killing for cards. In Rome, you have position and killing for cards, but you also have a war on income which gives way to new tactics.

A reason as to why some think of income maps as inferior to Classic is because Classic is more about mathematics, whereas in other maps the psychology factor has a greater presence; but they rarely think of the ahead-planning that it takes to succeed on these maps.

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Post by nimrod7 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:17 am

Great post Dom. I think that the Classic map can be a good training ground for the "fundamentals" you mentioned. In my opinion, if you can get a good handle on the Classic map, it gives you an advantage on others.

I also agree with this.
Claudiu wrote:Maybe this "anti-classic" stuff is not directed towards the map. Maybe it's a defense mechanism against those that try to devalue our map of choice.
The arrogance I see from some Classic players makes me want to scream. Aye Carumba.

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Post by n00less cluebie » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:39 am

Excellent post Dominator. So here's the underlying question. What exactly ABOUT the map makes it achieve so much, and is that reproducible on OTHER maps? But, we'll start a different thread for that (Click HERE)

Meanwhile, do any MOTW or Bio or Romers want to give a stab at what about THEIR maps helps develop Luxxer skill?

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Post by soundboy » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:03 am

I'll go out on a limb here... although it's a very skinny, brittle looking limb.

I learned a piece of my endgame from Rome... mainly a last ditch effort at turning certain death into a victory.
With 3 players remaining, it's very common for Romans to pop the leader all over the place. This used to drive me crazy... as an outsider, I felt when I had the game won, that I was being teamed or ganged up on. In reality, that's exactly what it was.
Today, I am less likely to roll over for a leader who has made a decidedly game winning move. I'll pop his income in hopes that the other player will look to weaken him as well and possibly re-level the playing field a bit.
Unfortunately, due to the RAW system, actually trying to bite into the leader has often led to my demise at the hands of the third player, who thought it would be a better idea if he/she just went ahead and played for second.

Regardless of how effective it's been in terms of results... it's one facet of Roman combat that I brought in to my game play.


:smt020

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Post by Dominator » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:16 am

Thats a good point sound.

I find thats a common strategy in bio too (and a good strategy)

If someone has game-over income defended really well .. too well for any one person to break without an all out suicide .. its a good strategy to weaken the border by slamming a lot of men into it and rely on the other person to actually hit the income.

But, thats a whole different beast when talking about strategy. The social interaction aspect of the game is also very important. It is important to learn the interaction between players in both card situations and income situations. But, that comes from playing different maps and seeing how people react to different scenarios .. sometimes just knowing the players and how they personally will react to a situation.

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Post by Dominator » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:38 am

Nimrod7 wrote: The arrogance I see from some Classic players makes me want to scream. Aye Carumba.
I agree with this too. But, its not only classic players ..

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Post by Claudiu » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:53 am

█ Soundboy: but you just go ahead and hand me to someone else
█ Soundboy: and waste armies for a continent that you'll never take
█ Soundboy: go play rome
█ Soundboy: less thinking
█ Soundboy: more clicking
█ paggles: well..you're play wa s to farm instead of groping for af
█ n00less cluebie: that should be a tagline

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Post by Shockandawe » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:57 am

The arrogance comes from an extended period of observation and interaction with players of other maps. A player who may think he is skilled at bio/rome will come into classic with the attitude that the Classic players are below them. I believe this could come from the fact that Classic is just that. Its not new, its not fast, its not flashy. Then once they ruin a few games and this happens over a long period of time. Its easy to see where the attitude comes from.

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Post by Dominator » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:58 am

Claudiu wrote:█ Soundboy: but you just go ahead and hand me to someone else
█ Soundboy: and waste armies for a continent that you'll never take
█ Soundboy: go play rome
█ Soundboy: less thinking
█ Soundboy: more clicking
█ paggles: well..you're play wa s to farm instead of groping for af
█ n00less cluebie: that should be a tagline
I never said it doesn't happen in classic maps .. just that its never rewarded .. that person probably lost the game because of the move.

In rome if you give someone away and have good income you can still win.

If your playing to win .. and observing how your moves reflect the way the game progresses .. then you'll learn not to give players away in classic ..

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Post by imapickle » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:21 am

In chess there are two elements to the game, the tactical and the strategic/positional. Tactics is precise calculational thinking. Strategy/positional play is the creative weaving together of the basic principles to produce a long term plan and to have in our minds the patterns that are likely to emerge and the strengths and weaknesses of different structures.
Of course the decisions about what tactics to calculate flows from our strategic thinking, and the older we get and the more brain cells we lose , the more selective we become about what we expend energy on calculating.

Risk also has those two elements i think, (and because it is a multi-player game, it also has a third element- the psycological element). I'll talk about the two maps I play most (I know a bit about these maps, I dont really know anything about the others)

The classic map is very helpful for forcing one to calculate (and I enjoyed very much playing the classic map in the blind luxtober tournament, not being able to see who is who really makes you calculate.) And since executing the kills and avoiding being card-fodder requires good positioning, there is clearly a positional/strategic element too.

The Rome map is more strategic. One has to think more about having control of certain areas of the map and who will hit who and what will be the likely future utcome of a border diepute between two other players etc. There is also the matter of killing for cash. This is the best way to win and I have seen players on Rome kill all 5 opponents in a single turn (I remember seeing Claudiu do it, or it might have been Camaro, and also I seem to remember BDF do it a time or two.) Against new players, one can win many games by making a multiple kill, this works well.
For this you need to be fairly good at calculating and thinking quickly.
Im a bit slow so i sometimes mess up on this. There is also the psychological part, especially in the three-player fiasco situation.

The best way to learn the principles of something is by distilling them from ones experience by thinking about what happens and abstracting to form general principles. This can be helped by other people teaching us or just by thinking, but "practice" in the sense of just playing lots of games, does not seem to help much.
So I can see that classic is especially good for learning tactical play and some strategy and Rome is good for learning strategy and some tactics.
But I think the best place to learn is where your mistakes, and good moves, are explained to you in a reasonable way (not just "u idiot, u asshatted me") and with other players who show a grasp of the basic ideas. The choice of map is secondary.

Also , I would add that a lot of people play just for fun without wanting to invest energy in trying to improve too much at a game. This is perfectly valid in my opinion.

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Post by imapickle » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:29 am

To respond to shockandawe, observing other peoples mistakes and the reason they make them, if combined with the right attitude, does not make one more arrogant, it makes one wiser.

Something that does tend to make one arrogant is being in an ultra-competitive cultural environment where we are expected to put other people down and big ourselves up in order to suvive socially or in a career.

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Post by Dangerous Beans » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:21 am

I never said it doesn't happen in classic maps .. just that its never rewarded .. that person probably lost the game because of the move.


Whenever I am the army leader in a 3 person game, I always try to reward the player who attacked me opposed to the player who did nothing or tried to play for 2nd if possible.

I also always try to weaken/pop the army leader whenever he is too strong and usually the other players in the game realize that they also need to weaken the leader and do so.

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Post by Shockandawe » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:29 am

DoooomFM wrote:To respond to shockandawe, observing other peoples mistakes and the reason they make them, if combined with the right attitude, does not make one more arrogant, it makes one wiser.

Something that does tend to make one arrogant is being in an ultra-competitive cultural environment where we are expected to put other people down and big ourselves up in order to suvive socially or in a career.
I can understand why you think this. However its the fact that people are making the same stupid decisions again and again and again. It may be a different person but its always the same stupid decisions and after so much time trying to show them either how to play or simply giving advice, which rarely do they listen to, it becomes real old real fast. Combine that with the idea I mentioned above and it's quite easy to have this result. You see the same mistakes being made over and over and over again for 2 years..... yeah i'm going to feel that way.

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Post by imapickle » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:54 am

This is a slightly different point. Does anyone believe there is a strong link between ability at lux and intelligence. Personally i dont think so. Not with a 30 second timer anyway.

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Post by C-Rex » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:26 am

DoooomFM wrote:This is a slightly different point. Does anyone believe there is a strong link between ability at lux and intelligence. Personally i dont think so. Not with a 30 second timer anyway.
Of course not. The more st00pid you are, the better you are at Lux.

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Post by nimrod7 » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:46 am

DoooomFM wrote:This is a slightly different point. Does anyone believe there is a strong link between ability at lux and intelligence. Personally i dont think so. Not with a 30 second timer anyway.
After you've been playing for a while, 30 seconds can be an eternity. Let's take me. I consider myself an average player (15% fh winner). But with a 30s timer I can make a kill, double check the board, and either go for a second kill or just place my guys. Of course, just because you're smart doesn't mean you are strategically bright.

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Post by imapickle » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:49 pm

I understand that nimrod. But really fast people can do that 3 times over, all in 30 seconds. Just cos they are reeeally fast at doing one, fairly basic, operation, does not necessarily make them geniuses. This is my point.

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Post by Shockandawe » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:50 pm

Speed is from analysis.... not clicking

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