Raw Rework — Ranking Changes

[RogueMonk]

I'm wondering when mister monk is going to contribute something to this thread other than "No negativity" gifs and smileys.

[nimrod7]

Good to see some consistency around here.

[Red Beard]

Whirly pretty much summed it up. Whoever thinks the "glory days" of Lux will somehow come back is fooling themselves.

I don't play much anymore, but I don't have a problem with anyone coming up with ways to make this place better.

Exactly. +2 for people trying to make this place a little better. No one is expecting any miracles and oddly enough some people just like to wallow in their own apparently bottomless disappointment. Kudos to all of the current mod squad for keeping this place afloat in the face of some pretty cranky customers.

I'm wondering when mister monk is going to contribute something to this thread other than "No negativity" gifs and smileys.

I know that you paraphrased that yourself, but you summed it up quite succinctly.

[RogueMonk]

I'm wondering when mister monk is going to contribute something to this thread other than "No negativity" gifs and smileys.

I know that you paraphrased that yourself, but you summed it up quite succinctly.

[Dangerous Beans]

/me farts.

[h0b0]

What about changing the ranking to be based on the highest raw achieved during the week as opposed to the end of the week. That way the raw whores among us are less likely to guest out to protect raw. More players playing, means more games, which means more more players playing lux and so on...

And are there really enough luxers to warrant having ranked rooms?

[nimrod7]

And are there really enough luxers to warrant having ranked rooms?

If they all play on Sunday (bots and aliases are included).
Bio : 211 active players
Classic: 44 active players
Imperium: 49 active players

[h0b0]

I played a bunch of asshatty games on the weeekend lost 300 points, and now cant get in a fh game.

I won't make the same mistake this week.

The scoring encourages people not to play.

[paranoiarodeo]

Whirly pretty much summed it up. Whoever thinks the "glory days" of Lux will somehow come back is fooling themselves. I don't play much anymore, but I don't have a problem with anyone coming up with ways to make this place better.

Glory days? Who said anything about the glory days? I doubt anyone here genuinely believes Lux could ever return to its former peak of online activity. Especially with dustin and the current mod squad in charge. However, I find it somewhat tragic that most of you won't acknowledge that Lux is objectively smaller now than anytime since 2004, and anyone who mentions this uncomfortable fact is shouted down by a chorus of moderators who can't abide criticism, and jeered by sycophants who will blindly give their thumbs up to any "improvement" no matter how meaningless and ineffective those gimmicks will be. Sadly, restoring mid-2012 levels of online activity would be a significant accomplishment, but honestly, even that's not gonna happen given the lack of leadership here.

None of us are working hard. We are here for fun.

I guess it must be fun to be a moderator winning a whole bunch of tourneys and new rankings by default, and there's no one is left to point out just how hollow and meaningless such accomplishments have become, huh? More power to you, Whirl, but let's not pretend that "important people" aren't working on improving Lux, and not slapping each other on your backs for every "big step" along the way.

(Besides, Weekend at Bernie's proved that propping up a corpse is both good fun and tiresome work, indeed.)

[mnemosyne]

hello luxers . . . a few more minor points before i use up my forum posting quota for the year . . .

1. i see that the classic and imperium raw is not resetting weekly like the overall raw. is that an effort to boost the overall 'current active players' numbers to create the illusion of popular support? it strikes me that all raw should reset on the same day and at the same time. these changes (and the trifurcated leaderboards) are confusing enough. what precisely are the counter-arguments to resetting the classic and imperium raw on a weekly basis as has always been the case with raw? we luxers like (but rarely get) transparency. /me speed dials guillerme for assistance.

2. when precisely will the classic and imperium raw scores reset if not weekly? after re-reading this thread, all i see is "not weekly." that seems pretty arbitrary and invites abuse (e.g. if an unnamed mod gets to the top of the classic rankings, then resets it immediately thereafter, that might look pretty suspect). i personally think they should reset weekly since it looks like the train has already left the station, but if that is not what has been ordained from above, when will they be reset? monthly? yearly? randomly? once in a blue moon? you say you like the idea of classic and imperium players having their own "chase," but how can there be a chase on those maps if nobody has any idea when the deadline is?!

3. i see quo is currently ranked 22, and boscoe 30 in classic, while reaper is holding down 16, and tactobot 21, while evilpixie is 25 in imperium. looks like it will be a close and interesting chase on those maps. will the bots be awarded medals, too? i am personally pulling for evil pixie (aka centrico)!

4. i am no enemy of change, but i like change from the bottom up, not from the top down, and these changes seem pretty top down. this is not good modeling for our political community (stanford prison experiment, anyone?!). ♪♫ meet the new boss, same as the old boss ♪♫

5. i am also no apologist for bio-deux extreme. i used to be a devotee of roman empire II, and played classic from time to time (but purposefully not in ways that jibed with the norms of the classic club). in fact, i originally despised playing bio. but i have come around on the latter because i like the diversity of starting scenarios/maps, and, quite honestly, because that is where all the action is these days. why is this so horrible? why do certain people in power feel so compelled to change things when everyone who is playing bio seems perfectly content to do so? and for those of you who decry the 'marathons' in bio . . . maybe you/we should bring back the starting first round bonus! that typically led to much quicker games.

6. did beardy say something about being cranky? that's like the ketchup calling the stop sign red! /me re-reads your posts from the last year or so and embraces this new you

now if i could only figure out how to do these gifs (sometimes you cannot teach an old dog new tricks, lol)! i personally like monk's biting satire, and got a good chuckle out of the last two. /me slides the rogue another trappist ale

in the spirit of friendship,

m

♪♫ we won't get fooled again ♪♫

[Red Beard]

Awe shucks mnem, thanks for for the props . I do try at least, not to be repetitive.

[WhirlPlaid]

I'll try to respond to your questions/thoughts nemo:

Initially, I proposed the elimination of all RAW and all weekly medals completely. I proposed a complete shake up to try something new that might encourage a variety of play. I proposed that the conversation be lengthy and public. Some of my ideas were accepted and dustin ran with them. Some of my ideas were rejected or at least have not yet been implemented.

I still am uncertain as to when Classic and Expletus will reset but I believe it will be at the end of each month. I have no problem, none whatsoever, with all leaderboards resetting at the same time, if I had my choice it would me monthly, but I feel that the community would prefer to stick with the same old routine of weekly medals. I personally think that a month long reset would be more challenging and consequently more rewarding, but that is merely my opinion. There are no counterarguments against weekly reset.

You say you are no enemy of change ... what change would NEMO like to see? Are you satisfied with the current state of Lux? Would you like to see things improve? If so, what might you suggest? I love The Who reference but, the boss here has never changed. Its has been and will always be dustin. Yes, he has been AFK for extended lengths of time but ultimately, what he says goes.

You ask in a roundabout manner what peoples objection with biodeux is? I can't speak for others, but I find in general, the dynamic of the game requires very aggressive play in the early rounds which instantly causes conflict resulting in negativity and name calling, this isn't fun for me. I also find that bio (in general, not specific to deux) creates choke points which diminishes what I consider to be smooth or natural pathing. If you can't path smoothly, then you can't kill cleanly. If you can't kill cleanly, then you are forced to asshat and or half kill someone in order to progress the game. Another result, that I personally am not fond of. I also find that biodeux is very dependent on starting position and turn order, where as on bigger maps even a person starting 6th can work his/her way into a winning position. Please take this entire paragraph with a grain of salt, because I am a HORRIBLE biodeux player which I am sure gives me some bias.

[Owned]

In response to your points Mnemosyne:

1. 1. i see that the classic and imperium raw is not resetting weekly like the overall raw. is that an effort to boost the overall 'current active players' numbers to create the illusion of popular support? it strikes me that all raw should reset on the same day and at the same time. these changes (and the trifurcated leaderboards) are confusing enough. what precisely are the counter-arguments to resetting the classic and imperium raw on a weekly basis as has always been the case with raw? we luxers like (but rarely get) transparency. /me speed dials guillerme for assistance.

2. Everyone knows that Lux's numbers are dwindling and at an all time low (yes, the mod squad is more than capable of admitting that). The lack of a reset on the Classic and Imperium Raws are not an attempt to hide that. dustin said that he did not setup resets for the Classic and Imperium raws to see what would happen. These new raws are tests, they may not stick around forever. That is why we have this thread, to say what we like and don't like and how to improve upon our current system.
   
   I agree that all the raws should reset on the same schedule (weekly, monthly, whatever) and at the same time. There is no argument against weekly resets as Whirl stated above. The monthly reset is an idea that has been proposed and may be tested out.
   
   Oh and this entire thread's purpose is to give the community transparency and the opportunity to set Lux in the direction the community wants it to go.
   

   2. when precisely will the classic and imperium raw scores reset if not weekly? after re-reading this thread, all i see is "not weekly." that seems pretty arbitrary and invites abuse (e.g. if an unnamed mod gets to the top of the classic rankings, then resets it immediately thereafter, that might look pretty suspect). i personally think they should reset weekly since it looks like the train has already left the station, but if that is not what has been ordained from above, when will they be reset? monthly? yearly? randomly? once in a blue moon? you say you like the idea of classic and imperium players having their own "chase," but how can there be a chase on those maps if nobody has any idea when the deadline is?!

3. As addressed in point 1, dustin threw together the Classic and Imperium raw based off an idea in an earlier thread. He did not setup any resets for them to see what would happen with them. They are still in a "beta" phase. So there is not a definite reset as of yet. I would assume that the end of this month would be the first one. Yes this may seem fishy, but if it really is so bad I am sure that we can compromise by not awarding any medals for the first reset.
   
   Mods do not have the power to reset the raws, only dustin has the tools to do so. It's sad to see that you think the mod squad is manipulative enough to set up rankings just so they could "win" them.
   
   As for chases happening on Classic and Imperium, I have personally been pulling for a weekly reset for all three raws. So yes, it is kinda hard to chase before resets are put into the system.
   

   3. i see quo is currently ranked 22, and boscoe 30 in classic, while reaper is holding down 16, and tactobot 21, while evilpixie is 25 in imperium. looks like it will be a close and interesting chase on those maps. will the bots be awarded medals, too? i am personally pulling for evil pixie (aka centrico)!

4. No response necessary.
   

   4. i am no enemy of change, but i like change from the bottom up, not from the top down, and these changes seem pretty top down. this is not good modeling for our political community (stanford prison experiment, anyone?!). ♪♫ meet the new boss, same as the old boss ♪♫

5. Imo, this is pretty bottom up. This thread is a good example of that. Right now you have the opportunity to make your opinions known on how the ranking system should be setup. Constructive criticism is what should be posted in this thread. We cannot do anything with just criticism.
   

   5. i am also no apologist for bio-deux extreme. i used to be a devotee of roman empire II, and played classic from time to time (but purposefully not in ways that jibed with the norms of the classic club). in fact, i originally despised playing bio. but i have come around on the latter because i like the diversity of starting scenarios/maps, and, quite honestly, because that is where all the action is these days. why is this so horrible? why do certain people in power feel so compelled to change things when everyone who is playing bio seems perfectly content to do so? and for those of you who decry the 'marathons' in bio . . . maybe you/we should bring back the starting first round bonus! that typically led to much quicker games.

6. Where have the "people in power" made the game less fun for bio players? I will reemphasize this. The new ranking changes are not meant to take anything away from BioDeux or BioDeux players. They are meant to empower the players of other maps. If you like BioDeux, you can continue to play BioDeux without any limitations. In fact, you will still earn weekly medals in BioDeux the same way you did before. And if overall raw is done away with, there will be absolutely no competition from other maps to earn the BioDeux medals.

[dollabillz]

so are you guys just doing like some model U.N. shit or...?

i feel out of the loop. PM me my role.

[dollabillz]

2¢: a group of volunteer mods picked from a game's players is a bad replacement for a competent admin.

[RogueMonk]

and dustin ran with them

The boss here has never changed. Its has been and will always be dustin

dustin said that he did not setup resets for the Classic and Imperium raws to see what would happen

dustin threw together the Classic and Imperium raw

only dustin has the tools to do so

It is so nice of you guys to speak for dustin. Well done on framing dustin's narrative as he figures it out on the fly. Answering the hard questions for him gives dustin the creative space he needs to "throw things together" and see "what will happen" as the "has been and aways will be boss". Some things "never change" even with "the tools to do so"--kudos to you for helping dustin embody that.



No negativity here. %100 positivity. Go team!

[Rhye]

as the "has been and aways will be boss".

It would have been more poignant to make an allusion and call dustin the Once and Future King of Lux. Then you could've explored all the possibilities of the comparison as in the Micella carpentry scenario. One could certainly see being killed by your bastard son as interesting, or at least amusing in our community. Alas, you did not.

[dustin]

Classic and Imperium raw ladders seem like a good thing to have. A reset and medals on them as well. They will be resetting monthly, along with the MOTM.

The weekly "overall" raw chase will continue as normal.

[PJB]

11-21-2015

• Raw has been added to the Classic and Imperium Romanum Expletus maps.
• The Sillysoft Rankings Page has been updated to add in the two new raws.

I don't think that my last 3 classic games are recorded/included in the classic rankings. My and others players classic raw stayed the same since yesterday even though we played a FH classic game and some other games as well.

Am i wrong? Dustin?

Dustin the classic ranking is not updating. Im not talking about a reset. Im talking about that i don't get any new classic raw when i play a classic game.

Can you fix it?

[WhirlPlaid]

I played three games of Classic, I won two of them, I also am not on the leaderboard. My games were only two human games so they are inconsequential, but I though I would echo PJB's sentiment.

[mnemosyne]

i appreciate . . . very, very much, the previous discussion and replies to my queries and challenges. this is precisely the type of transparency that will help rebuild confidence in luxdom and our leaders.

my previously expressed frustrations stemmed from the fact that i got used to playing certain maps in certain ways, and then 1. roma kind of withered away engendering the same lament that i hear from a lot of former classic devotees, 2. after adjusting to the new popular map (bio), the tinkering began for several months in ways that i did not particularly like (e.g. shorter turn times, manipulating continent bonuses, taking away first round bonuses, exp cards, timed games, kill bonuses, raw manipulation, fake games, etc.) all under the auspices of ending so called "marathons" and "flawed raw" (that was frequently alleged, but never clearly articulated other than the motw raw bonus). the only map where the conditions were left completely untouched was, not surprisingly, classic (because nobody can ever question the "purity" of that map), 3. then came the rather peculiar appointment of the historically high drama and frequently afk stelee as mod who seemed to ruffle more feathers than not, and 4. new mods and more tinkering (speaking of new mods, is aqua a mod, or not? he says that he is not, but he still seems to be on the list. i personally would like to see his alias-despising self reappointed, but if he is not willing to serve in that capacity, the mod squad is not operating at full throttle, and that needs to be addressed). maybe we should appoint new mods the same way we vote on luxtoberfest awards: i.e. let the players decide who their leaders should be?

in my estimation, lux needed normalcy, stability, and predictability in our post-para era, and that is not what we have been getting. perhaps i am more conservative that i realized, lol

what changes would mnemo like to see? none for now, thanks (including removing this confusing tri-furcated raw with no clearly articulated raw reset for two of the featured maps). *(edit: now clearly articulated: a monthly reset. thanks for clarifying).*

i would, however, like to see more active mod patrols in game play. i do not recall seeing one mod in any of the last several dozens of games that i have played (save whirly last night in . . . gulp . . . bio. wp of course promptly won back to back games leading one to believe that all this 'i ain't no good at bio' talk is just wp playing bio-possum). that is one of the aspects that i miss about para . . . he was omnipresent, even when he wasn't in the room, and he didn't tolerate any funny business in his rooms (he also provided some hella stable hosts, not to mention a seemingly endless supply of pistachios!). we need leaders and role models to stimulate and sustain interest in lux; leaders who set the tone by their example and presence, and make new players feel welcome (and bring old players back) (cough . . . tsk . . . cough). when you lose players like llux llama, who admittedly did not play very much, it should be a red flag!

as i mentioned before, i would also like to see more interest in motw/motm selection and play.

i have another risky idea . . . try shutting down bio for a couple of weeks and see what happens (again, i am no bio apologist). if people really want to play that map, that may stimulate others hosting it (and learning how to host in general). it might also lead to people beginning to populate other rooms and maps. of course, it also runs the risk of killing the remaining interest in lux entirely. glad i am not the 'decider.'

well . . . i am afraid that i am over my forum posting quota for the year (see what you made me do?!), so i wish our fearless leaders all the best in reawakening the force.

warmly,

m

[RogueMonk]

[paranoiarodeo]

Anyone wanna guess how many MOTW games were played this month?

(Twelve. All two human. GFips won the medal with a grand total of five MOTW points.)

[Dangerous Beans]

try shutting down bio for a couple of weeks and see what happens

./Agree

[Shockandawe]

Whirly pretty much summed it up. Whoever thinks the "glory days" of Lux will somehow come back is fooling themselves. I don't play much anymore, but I don't have a problem with anyone coming up with ways to make this place better.

Glory days? Who said anything about the glory days? I doubt anyone here genuinely believes Lux could ever return to its former peak of online activity. Especially with dustin and the current mod squad in charge. However, I find it somewhat tragic that most of you won't acknowledge that Lux is objectively smaller now than anytime since 2004, and anyone who mentions this uncomfortable fact is shouted down by a chorus of moderators who can't abide criticism, and jeered by sycophants who will blindly give their thumbs up to any "improvement" no matter how meaningless and ineffective those gimmicks will be. Sadly, restoring mid-2012 levels of online activity would be a significant accomplishment, but honestly, even that's not gonna happen given the lack of leadership here.[/size]

Lux is the old house on the street.

Sure you can put a new furnace in or maybe some new appliances to make it more livable, but that isn't going to hide it's age. It's paint is cracked and it's roof is leaking. The people that live there are looking through the lens of nostalgia. No new landlord can fix it because the wood is rotting and the foundation is cracked.

At some point people have to come to the realization that what is being said isn't negativity. It's reality.

Lux is 12 years old next year. The fact that the owner even continues to make updates or changes 12 years after the release of their product, no matter how small, is largely unheard of.

If you still enjoy playing then cherish every game that you play because one day you will open the tracker and there isn't going to be anything left.

[dustin]

Award images for Classic and Roman ladders aren't finalized yet, but placeholder images are in place for now, and the first awards and reset have gone through.

[Deep Blue]

[*]Other than BioDeux, do we want a fourth ranking system? The mod squad + dustin are leaning toward a MOTM raw. Do we want a room that rotates through different maps that has a raw ranking?

I always liked the idea to have different maps in one room. Anyway I am very happy with the imp and classic raw. That will hopefully help those rooms get going also.

[paranoiarodeo]

Award images for Classic and Roman ladders aren't finalized yet, but placeholder images are in place for now, and the first awards and reset have gone through.

More meaningless medals for everyone!

∞ paranoiarodeo slow claps ∞

[Bean]

I don't know where the idea comes from, ShockandAwe, that products 12 years old are about to die. The tech world? Some video games? Lux is not analogous to Starcraft. It could be Lux dwindles to zero, but it has seemed like that for years. I was going to say counterexample on Bridge or Poker, but I actually don't know if they are played as much as they used to be, notwithstanding the growth of professional poker. Well, still, for me this game has the potential for diversity in game mechanics and enjoyment that is much better than bridge, poker, or chess. There are enough people here that I like and like to play with. I'd like to see more and I'd like to see folks like you around more to play with, but I'm happy and willing to work on a few things here and there to try and improve things a bit. There isn't going to be a betting pool on the end date. lol.

[dollabillz]

this game has the potential for diversity in game mechanics and enjoyment that is much better than bridge, poker, or chess.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh