Don't take the Christ out of Christmas!

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Cuarto
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Don't take the Christ out of Christmas!

Post by Cuarto » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:27 pm

BLACK POPE EDIT:

Cuarto, while engaging in a facinating subject actually quite unrelated to this one, refered to "Christmas" as "xmas".
K's response began an interesting discussion that merited its own topic.
At Cuarto's request, this edit has been made...enjoy!

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General K
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Post by General K » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:08 pm

Cuarto wrote:Too bad you can't wait until X-Mas for the tournament…
Don't put an X on the name of the Christ please!

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Post by KingPatrick » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:12 pm

General X has spoken.

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Post by Packman » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:15 pm

General K wrote:
Cuarto wrote:Too bad you can't wait until X-Mas for the tournament…
Don't put an X on the name of the Christ please!
Amen K.....amen!!!

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Post by General K » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:41 am

oh and it sound an interesting event (although the tomb with the Santa hat looks too gloomy)... count me in!

:lol:

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Post by Drifter » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:37 am

General K wrote:
Cuarto wrote:Too bad you can't wait until X-Mas for the tournament…
Don't put an X on the name of the Christ please!
Amen brother.

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Post by Preacherman » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:46 am

From Wikipedia : The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as 1021 AD. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ"), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ. The labarum, an amalgamation of the two Greek letters rendered as ☧, is a symbol often used to represent Christ in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian Churches.

Europeans in the 16th century started using X in place of Christ's name as shorthand for writing Christ. The Christian monks and scholars were knowledgeable of the Greek letter X, - Chi or Khi - which is the first letter in the Greek word "Christos" or "Kristos" (Greek: CristoV) The Greek and Hebrew word "Christos" comes out "Messiah" and mean the same thing: "The anointed One." For many years the X was understood by Christian clergy and as time passed, many Christians, educated and not, were not aware of the meaning. Over time the meaning became lost and was later perceived as a sign of disrespect.

It actually isn't. Happy Xmas!

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Post by Black Pope » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:10 am

I typed that a couple years ago when the same discussion came up. No one believed me...lol...

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Post by The Wontrob » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:29 am

who wouldnt believe a black pope concerning religion?

morons

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Post by General K » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:42 am

Preacherman wrote:....in the Greek word "Christos" or "Kristos" (Greek: CristoV)...

You mean Portuguese?
hm... does that mean that pcristov is the Lux messiah????


by the way preach I don't buy into that argument and I still find it a sign of disrespect, same as that funny marketing character named Santa Clause who robbed the real meaning of that event!
Preacherman wrote:Europeans in the 16th century started using X in place of Christ's name as shorthand for writing Christ.


if this is true, that was a mistake - if not blasphemy. why do you need to shorthand for writing a short word anyway? it's only 6 letters!

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Post by Preacherman » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:10 pm

General K wrote:You mean Portuguese?
hm... does that mean that pcristov is the Lux messiah????
It would be a sad day for Lux if pcristov did turn out to be the Messiah :shock:
General K wrote:...same as that funny marketing character named Santa Clause who robbed the real meaning of that event!
Couldn't agree more.
General K wrote:if this is true, that was a mistake - if not blasphemy. why do you need to shorthand for writing a short word anyway? it's only 6 letters!
Don't ask me, I'm an atheist.
http://www.crivoice.org/symbols/xmasorigin.html

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Post by Mike » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:15 pm

General K wrote:if this is true, that was a mistake - if not blasphemy. why do you need to shorthand for writing a short word anyway? it's only 6 letters!
Not that this is in any way relevant - but the above quote reminded me of this.

Have you ever noticed that when you say (in English anyhow) that W W W is harder to say - and has more syllables that what it is an abbreviation for - world wide web.... 3 times as many syllables to be exact! Not all abbreviations are actually abbreviated versions of the 'long form'

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Post by hoodie » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:34 pm

I get your point, Mike, but I think w-w-w is easier to say because of the shape and repetition of the syllables. if you enunciate world wide web you're doing speaking excercises, working different muscles. dubbleyoudubbleyoudubbleyou is much easier.

I was gonna write about the whole X-thing, but in the end, there's this: if someone didn't have the intention to be offensive, you KNOW they didn't have the intention to be offensive, there's a complete rationale to why they used the spelling as they did... at some point it becomes drama, drama, drama to continue to be offended by it.

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Post by Big Will E Style » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:18 pm

As a Catholic/Christian.......I am in no way offended by "X-mas"

If it is something you don't believe should be used, then don't use it. But telling another not to use it, is just ignorant.....

edited to add: unless of course it is used as a way to demean the christian religion (as Hoodie said)

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Post by jwd » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:53 pm

As someone raised Catholic, I'm not offended by X-Mass either, tho I am surrounded by those that would be, so just always make the habit of writing it out...

Tho, if this didn't offend me, what could?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodland_Critter_Christmas

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=4



Merry Christmas!



jwd

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Post by General K » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:03 pm

invent a lie.
repeat it and keep repeating it.
advertise the lie, put in on media, brainwash the mob with that lie.


and sadly with time, the lie will become a truth, and a fact.

Santa clause was a lie, now it's a fact.
Christmas was to celebrate the birth of the savior, now it is to celebrate marketing growth!

Don't put an X! write his name, Christ!




and Merry Christmas!

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Post by Big Will E Style » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:14 pm

General K wrote:invent a lie.
repeat it and keep repeating it.
advertise the lie, put in on media, brainwash the mob with that lie.


and sadly with time, the lie will become a truth, and a fact.
Interesting you say that GK. Many non-christians believe this is how Christianity was developed.

I, for one, disagree. But you have to choose your battles. Someone writing X-mas, in a forum about Killing Santa Claus is hardly the offensive one. Santa Claus is a figure that might take away from the real meaning of Christmas......but would Christmas be what it is without Santa Claus? Would Easter be what it is without the Easter Bunny? Of course not. If anything, these figures have given children a reason to care about Easter and Christmas, as long as it is done right.

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Post by General K » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:45 pm

Big Will E Style wrote:Interesting you say that GK. Many non-christians believe this is how Christianity was developed.

true, and that is why the early Christians who were considered "liars" were persecuted, butchered, thrown into arenas as lions food... and there were many attempt to kill that "lie"... but it turned out that "Love", "forgiveness", "modesty", "peace", and "hope" are values and not "lies".

if Christianity was a lie, it is the best lie ever, a beautiful one, a lie that humanity needs!

but I believe that it is a truth. that is me. so don't put an X on my believes please.

now back to the topic? where is Santa so I could kill it?

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Post by Scad » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:51 pm

GK, at the risk of inciting this discussion further, they were persecuted because what they said were lies... to the people they were saying them to. Romans liked their gods. And had a history of killing other people who didn't.

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Post by General K » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:06 pm

Scad wrote:GK, at the risk of inciting this discussion further, they were persecuted because what they said were lies... to the people they were saying them to. Romans liked their gods. And had a history of killing other people who didn't.
Early Christians were persecuted everywhere and for many decades, not only by romans...

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Post by Black Pope » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:15 pm

I'm sorry, K, but you have it all wrong: Christians weren't ever persecuted or slaughtered by pagans; it was always the other way around.
I know that because Dan Brown said so.
:wink:

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Post by KingPatrick » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:30 pm

Can I get a certain groundhog put on the list?

8)

In all sincerity,
I've been watching this thread, about replacing the Christ of Christmas with an X, I also applaud those who have take a bold stand for their beliefs in this public forum, first General K who has iniated and defended, Packman, Preacherman and Big Will E Style, among others I may have missed.

Wanting to weigh in, both flippantly and seriously, I carefully restrained my tongue, knowing where this could lead.

But I think that the truth has yet to be written here, at least as I understand it, and I will attempt to add it. I will be more brief, than academic.

The word Christmas was originally Christ's Mass, which was actually added to a worship of Baal, the Sun God, on SUNday, which occurred on December 25th, which, with certain calendar adjustments reversed, was actually the winter solstice (our Dec. 21st), a very high holy day to pagan Baal worshipers. To celebrate the real birth of Jesus, you would do so in September.

Christ's Mass was added to the SUNday festivities by Emperor Constantine (then ruler of Rome, and ruler of the known world), when he added Jesus to his list of gods.

Constantine was very troubled with the fact that military might was no longer effective against the rapidly growing populations of Christians that were multiplying throughout his empire. They didn't mind dying, and sang hymns under excruciating torture, and prayed for forgiveness for their torturers. The first peace movement in history was born.

To manage these populations, he established The Catholic Church (Catholic meaning "general"), to include all, or "everyman". This was the beginning of a form of government and media that would essentially rule the world for more than one thousand, five hundred years. Under Rome, the papacy, with new doctrines, or "dogma," ruled the major kings at the time, all of the people through the church system, and controlled of all education, doctrine and literature, most of which was burned as heretical, hence, the Dark Ages.

It was not until the renaissance, in circa 1450, of art, education and curiosity about the scientific, that certain sincere Christians really started seeing some things in the scriptures that were different than what was being propagated, and often cruelly enforced. All were Catholic priests. Saint Augustine, for one, Martin Luther, and John Calvin, especially, all risked their lives to speak out in courage for truth.

Despite every attempt to squash this movement, the Catholic church was faced with a PROTESTant Reformation. This reformation led to many other branches of Christianity, with many million "leaves" of theology, but many of the original practices and traditions of the Catholic Church system still remain, throughout most of the mainline church branches, today. One of them is Christ's Mass, which has been phonetically shortened to Christmas. Another is Easter, which we won't go into here.

So, TO THOSE WHO CARE, and ARE attempting to make a stand for Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of the Creator, as He himself claimed to be, it is neither "Christmas" nor "Xmas" that really does so. Excessive squabbling over words is a waste of time.

Solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. --2 TIM 2:14

Now, back to that groundhog... 8)

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Post by Black Pope » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:39 pm

Sigh...just so ya know, there's not many actual historians who would agree with your read.
Although its quite fashionable and acceptable to paint the Catholic Church in the worst possible light, it is generally incredibly inaccurate.
Augustine was alive shortly after the time of Constantine, was appointed Bishop by the Catholic Church and is, to date, the most quoted author in the Catechism. I think he would roll over in his grave and being associated with such a wild interpretation of history; including one that puts him in a movement that occured 1100 years after his death.
Maybe the restraint you typed of early was, in fact, called for.

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Post by KingPatrick » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:45 pm

Black Pope wrote:Sigh...just so ya know, there's not many actual historians who would agree with your read.
Although its quite fashionable and acceptable to paint the Catholic Church in the worst possible light, it is generally incredibly inaccurate.
Augustine was alive shortly after the time of Constantine, was appointed Bishop by the Catholic Church and is, to date, the most quoted author in the Catechism. I think he would roll over in his grave and being associated with such a wild interpretation of history; including one that puts him in a movement that occured 1100 years after his death.
Maybe the restraint you typed of early was, in fact, called for.
Personally, I have nothing against the Catholic church, as I believe that God uses a many different ministries and effects. I was a catholic in my youth, which inspired further study. But historians do NOT deny the mistakes and origin of the Catholic church, though my broad strokes may have been too brash.

As for Augustine, this is a hero of mine. He sincerely pursued the truth, at all costs.

-------
Added afterward,

And you're probably right about the restraint.
Last edited by KingPatrick on Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by hoodie » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:45 pm

Can we just get back to killing Santa? :D

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Post by KingPatrick » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:47 pm

WHO CAN TELL US WHERE
SANTA CLAUSE
COMES FROM?

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Post by Big Will E Style » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:48 pm

GK,

If someone believes in Jesus Christ and his word, and uses X-mas, why does this offend you?

BP,

Though, I am not quite sure of the historical accuracy of Dan Brown's books (Angels and Demons/Da Vinci Code), one good thing he does point out is whether or not someone thinks Christianity is right or wrong, in its purest form, christianity is a way for people to be better. I actually found his books as an eye-opener for myself as a way to better realize my beliefs as a 20-something year old Catholic (especially Angels and Demons)

KP,

I find your explanation to be very credible, but I also think Preacherman has a point as well. Again, I don't know the exact history of the Catholic church and the reforming churches following this time.....But what I do know is we all share very similar beliefs politics aside. One thing that does not differ very much is the word of Jesus. This is what all of our religion is based on and can be quickly forgotten because of the politics involved.

I know I probably dragged this on more than most cared to read, but I do think it is a very interesting topic for people of different beliefs, backgrounds and cultures to discuss.....I am always open to hear what people feel about a certain topic.

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Post by Preacherman » Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:01 pm

I split this off from Packmans original topic here.

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Post by jOnNiE » Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:08 pm

General K wrote:
Cuarto wrote:Too bad you can't wait until X-Mas for the tournament…
Don't put an X on the name of the Christ please!
You can't tell him he can't put an X in the place of Christ. Give me a break

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Post by jOnNiE » Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:10 pm

General K wrote:invent a lie.
repeat it and keep repeating it.
advertise the lie, put in on media, brainwash the mob with that lie.


and sadly with time, the lie will become a truth, and a fact.

Santa clause was a lie, now it's a fact.
Christmas was to celebrate the birth of the savior, now it is to celebrate marketing growth!

Don't put an X! write his name, Christ!




and Merry Christmas!
whatever, some people consider the whole story of christ a lie, so don't be ridiculous.

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