Anti Americanism

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xrayspecs
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Anti Americanism

Post by xrayspecs » Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:43 pm

This note probably belongs at the end of of another thread- but honestly it was getting fucking long and tedious.

All this anti-Americanism smacks of cheap hypocrisy to me.

Is there really anyone out there who doesn't see Saddam as an evil fascist who deserved to be taken out? So what if the war is a mess and the rationale for going to war was flawed? Fascists deserve to die, and thank God America had the balls to do something about one.

And yes, innocents die in wars. Far more died in the fire bombing of Dresden than will ever die in Iraq- those deaths are on all of our consciences, but 50 years from now the people of Iraq (if they don't manage to fuck it up again) will be as accepting of the cost of the war as ther Germans presumably are today.

Take racism, clearly a problem in America, but one we wrestle with every day in a serious way. I can't stand Europeans who get all sancitmonious about US race relations and in the same breath bitch about the Bosnians who have turned their precious village greens into places where people, god forbid, don't speak the Queens English anymore. For all it's flaws, America is the most welcoming nation in the world. I went to school in England, at one of the most progressive schools in the country, and jews were regularly called kikes and yids, anyone with dark skin was automatically a wog. Then the kids would read about American civil rights and criticize the US. Made me sick.

Torture and human rights abuses post 911- sure we overreacted- but so did England during the IRA bombing campaign, and France during the Algerian war, fact of life.

Americans are a naturally isolationist people, and yet we're willing to see our children die over and over again in foreign wars for abstract principles. And yet you bitch.

Done ranting. Just spare me the hypocrisy please.

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Post by Baden » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:23 pm

I agree with you in some points, but:

1.
You can't equate being against the intervention in Iraq (btw, I was not) automatically with "Anti-Americanism" in any case.

2.
As far as I observed the discussions going on here in the Forum, many of the "Anti-American" viewpoints you critisize were expressed in the majority of cases by your compatriots not by Europeans.

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Post by mbauer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:23 pm

Hi xrayspecs,

I don't see any anti-Americanism in this forum, maybe it's my perception, maybe it isn't. But what I feel very strongly about is that war, whatever war that might be, should be used as a last option. When a leader, any leader, decides that he/she wants to go attack another country. The people have a right and should excercise the right to question that leader, to make sure that war is the correct answer. That right is what makes this country the great country it is. Thomas Jefferson once wrote "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Maybe the war is/was the correct solution, only history will tell us. Your opinion was that is was, my opinion was that is was not. But at the end of the day, we are both human beings that want the same thing, a better future. The dispute comes in how to best obtain that better future. No amount of arguing, no amount of supporting facts, no amount of well written articles will ever convince the other. But the one truth, the one fact, the one right that all of us share is that we can express our opinions, openly, honestly, and without retaliation. Europeans are apart of this world too, what we do to other countries affects them as well, therefore they have a right to express thier opinions just like we do.

What really gets my goat is:

1. There are lots of evil dictators in the world, Saddam was just one of them. Clinton tried to go after the evil dictator of Bosnia, that was carrying out crimes just as bad if not worse than Saddam. And Congress did not give him the authority to go after that "evil fascist," the way they gave Bush the authority to go after Saddam. There are evil dictators all over Africa that carry out crimes against humanity just like Saddam did. We do not go after them, we don't even talk about them. Why is that? If we went after Saddam because he was an "evil fascist," why are we not going after all the other, so called "evil fascists?" I don't, nor do I think many do, dispute the fact that Saddam was an evil guy, but if that was the reason we went to war, then we should constantly be at war with every single leader like Saddam. But we don't and that's what smacks me as cheap hypocrisy and blatant propaganda.

2. The people that lied to us about the reason to go to war, impeached Clinton because he lied about getting his dick sucked. Which is worse lying about getting your dick sucked or lying about war? That is also what smacks me as cheap hypocrisy.

3. War is a very serious matter, people get killed not just bad guys not just soldiers. Innocent people get killed. Yes, it's a part of war, yes, it is hard to avoid. But that is all the more reason to question the reasons to go to war and to make sure it's the right thing to do. We as a country did not do that. And when we found out that we were lied to, when we found out they did not have a solid plan, when we found out it's costing us exponentially more than we expected, what did we do? Shrugged our shoulders and said, "oh well, Saddam was a bad guy anyway." I'm sorry, but that to me is cheap hypocrisy.

thank you
mbauer

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Post by xrayspecs » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:43 pm

very true. history is full of acts of political cowardice. and yes, the war in iraq may be one of them since God only knows why Bush went. but what i celebrate is the result, and the willingness of young americans to die for an ideal that they truly believe, whethere their dingbat of a president does or not.

more whirled pease please.

on the dick sucking thing- couldnt agree with you more.

imagine if a former prostitute got into the clinton white house as a member of the press with no prior experience, then was able to ask the president a question at a formal press conference. there would be an outcry right?

well it actually happened in the bush white house, and his name is jeff gannon. wonder who's dick he was sucking?

but i digress...

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Post by mbauer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:03 pm

xrayspecs wrote:but what i celebrate is the result, and the willingness of young americans to die for an ideal that they truly believe, whethere their dingbat of a president does or not.
I couldn't agree more. I will go to my grave supporting the brave men and women that fight and die for our country. Even if I don't agree with the reasons they are fighting. I hope that when I say that I disagree with this war people don't automtically assume that means I do not support our troops. Which clearly is not the case. But when we as a country send those brave men and women thousands of miles away to die for us, the one that we can repay them, the one way that we can thank them, the one way that we can honor them; is to make sure they are dying for the truth, to make sure they are not lied to, and to make sure they are not being sacrificed for greed.


thanks
mbauer

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Post by Mine » Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:41 pm

im sorry but the Saddam was a bastard and needed to be taken out excuse for war profittering does not fly. Our govt has and still does support all sorts of bastards worse than Saddam. This administation has money/power interests in that region, much like the british did and other older emipres. The Saddam is a bastard reason only surfaced after the WMD excuse did not work. And the Saddam is a terrorist excuse did not work. This administration has a plan - PNAC. that says to achieve The New American Century we need to control the the Middle East first. Money and Power. It really is RISK The Game of Global Domination.

To critizise the evil doings of our govt is NOT anti-america. Its one of our grandest traditions to call bullshit on some assholes that are using americans, and their tragidies to make a buck. It personally offends me to that these cocksmokers lie lie lie, get caught at it and still lie. all the while preach on a pulpit how they love truth and freedom while ending human lives. Hypocrites

sometimes i feel that if the white house just said, "yep, we're trying to take over the world and fuck anyone that tries to stop us" i would feel better. At least i wouldnt have to hear lies lies lies lies

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Post by fluffernuffer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:43 pm

mbauer wrote:thank you
You're welcome.

I think it's time to settle this debate on the battlefield. The Liberators of Freedom: myself, Smaug, and xray (with BigDog and Altidude as alternates) against The Pacifists for Peace: you, Mine and Preacherman (with Furball and Baden as alternates) in a best-of-7 Lux tournament.

Classic. 5, 5, 5. Immediate cash OFF. Placed countries and armies.

Put your opinion where your Lux game is.

The Liberators of Freedom :smt067 vs. :smt051 The Pacifists for Peace

:smt109

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Post by mbauer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:50 pm

fluffernuffer wrote: Put your opinion where your Lux game is.

The Liberators of Freedom :smt067 vs. :smt051 The Pacifists for Peace

:smt109
uhhh... I don't think that will work, but I'm up for it for fun's sake.

:lincoln:

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Post by Mine » Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:53 pm

if only world leaders settled their differences by Lux...
perhaps we should e-mail a copy of Lux to the heads of state..
Lux..bringer of peace

anyway

im down to settle this like men and crush skulls and send souls to hell ina tournament

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Post by fluffernuffer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:06 pm

For goodness sake MB...you and Preacher are Mods...make it happen.

<fluffernuffer slaps MB in the back of the head with the back of his hand>

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Post by michelle » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:09 pm

fluffernuffer wrote:For goodness sake MB...you and Preacher are Mods...make it happen.

<fluffernuffer slaps MB in the back of the head with the back of his hand>
actually MB is a civilian *cough*

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Post by fluffernuffer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:13 pm

michelle wrote:actually MB is a civilian *cough*
has he no wizard powers left?

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Baden
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Post by Baden » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:30 pm

Lol, forget it fluffer.

The "pacifists" have actually 989 points average compared to 775 of the "liberators" and a seeded the relation is 8 : 45.

Even the "pacifist" alternates have 958 average points, while "liberator" altitude does not have any ranking at all.

Nice attempt to cool down the discussion, so I would support it.

Btw I am no "Pacifist", I simply love peace.

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Post by fluffernuffer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:55 pm

Rankings schmankings...I assure you it would be close using that game format.

But if you want to run....

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Post by vonibot » Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:18 pm

my basic viewpoint:

The domestic and foriegn policy of ANY nation is hypocritical.
There is no way to balance self-interest with geniune goodwill.

As an American, I think the United States is more hypocritacal than most nations:
We play world police when it suits us, we offer the world an idealist dream we are unwilling to give our citizens, and we are shocked when the world disagrees with American policy.

However, just because I view the US as hypocritical, doesn't mean that I do not love America--what it does mean is that while I am in the US, I have to stand up for my rights and my view as to what I believe it means to be an American, and it means that when I travel abroad, I am an ambassador to all of the things we do very well in the United States.

I lived in Germany during Gulf War I and I was questioned and accused of many things for being American--but taking it personally served NO purpose other than to reinforce the worst of what it is to be American.

My advice is this: the only "Anti-" anything (whether it is Anti-American, Anti-French, Anti-whatever nation) is Anti-Rational.
Our cultures define us, nationalism divides us.
Listen and Learn.
Educate and embrace.
Be human first.

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Post by altidude » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:36 am

Baden wrote:..."liberator" altitude does not have any ranking at all.
I would have ranking if hosts would stop quitting and/or I had more time to play...

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Post by xrayspecs » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:18 pm

ya think?

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Post by Smaug » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:56 pm

mbauer wrote: O don't see any anti-Americanism in this forum, maybe it's my perception, maybe it isn't.
Don't you read your own posts ?
But the one truth, the one fact, the one right that all of us share is that we can express our opinions, openly, honestly, and without retaliation.
What freshman class are we in now? Go try your theory out on your boss. Share your opinion on what a fucktard he is. See how that carries over in the adult world.
If we went after Saddam because he was an "evil fascist," why are we not going after all the other, so called "evil fascists?" I don't, nor do I think many do, dispute the fact that Saddam was an evil guy, but if that was the reason we went to war, then we should constantly be at war with every single leader like Saddam. But we don't and that's what smacks me as cheap hypocrisy and blatant propaganda.
I hope the world does go after all evil fascists.

It's a triage and you go after the ones that are most dangerous.

Here's the post 9-11 list:

1. The Taliban
2. Saddam
3. Alec Baldwin
4. The North Korean nut.

It would help if some of the European pantywaists would pitch in.
2. The people that lied to us about the reason to go to war, impeached Clinton because he lied about getting his dick sucked. Which is worse lying about getting your dick sucked or lying about war?
The people that said there were WMDs in Iraq may have been wrong, or they may have been hidden or taken out of the country. Had Saddam cooperated with the UN inspectors the war probably wouldn't have happened. But for ten years he played whack the mole with the UN, through dozens of condemnations and censures and scanctions and all that BS.

Nobody lied about WMDs. Look at Bush's behavior, they clearly thought they were there, and not finding them was a political black eye. But Saddam was a guy that had manufacturedf WMDs before and USED them. He also was providing open financial support to Palestinaian homicide bombers. Odd coincidence how that siutuation has calmed down, huh?

As far as Clinton goes, I'm all for getting my dick sucked. HUGE fan. But you don't do it with a 20 year old ditzy airheaded blabbermouth employee in the workplace. That gets you fired at Burger King for christ sake.

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Post by mbauer » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:58 am

Smaug wrote:
mbauer wrote: O don't see any anti-Americanism in this forum, maybe it's my perception, maybe it isn't.
Don't you read your own posts ?
I hope you are not calling me anti-American. Do you read my posts? Why does questioning our policies suddenly make one anti-American? Questioning the government is what Democracy is founded on. Freedom of Speech is one of the Bill of Rights. What fucking basis do you have to call me Anti-American? Because I disagree with you? This is the stupidest most un-ameircan thing you could have ever said. So we all have to be robots and do what our leader says in order to be American, huh? You ignorant blind asshole. (hold on, hold on, make sure you read all the way to the bottom).
What freshman class are we in now? Go try your theory out on your boss. Share your opinion on what a fucktard he is. See how that carries over in the adult world.
It's called being an American 101 you should try taking it and stop swallowing everything you hear come out of the U.S. television box.
I hope the world does go after all evil fascists.

It's a triage and you go after the ones that are most dangerous.

Here's the post 9-11 list:

1. The Taliban
2. Saddam
3. Alec Baldwin
4. The North Korean nut.

It would help if some of the European pantywaists would pitch in.
Oh I'm glad you hope we go after all the evil fascist, that's mighty noble of you Smaug. Let me ask you this if the Taliban was number 1 on this list then why are we not concentrating on getting all of them, because there is still a whole lot of them out there in Afghanistan?. And why did the list suddenly occur post 9-11 was Saddam not a bad guy on Sept. 10? Where did this list come from and when did it originate? So why is the leader of Darfur who is commiting acts of genocide and killing thousands of his own country men, not one of the most dangerous? Because he doesn't have oil maybe? He has no more WMD than Saddam did, nor the ability to make them, just like Saddam didn't. But Bush, Haliburton, and the oil industry say that Saddam is more dangerous so it must be true. The oil is just a bonus, huh?
The people that said there were WMDs in Iraq may have been wrong, or they may have been hidden or taken out of the country. Had Saddam cooperated with the UN inspectors the war probably wouldn't have happened. But for ten years he played whack the mole with the UN, through dozens of condemnations and censures and scanctions and all that BS.
They may have been wrong, well I guess that's a start. Thousands of human lives later, billions of dollars later, 2 entire countries in ruins and maybe they were wrong, just maybe. Oh, Oh but they could have moved them, maybe to Iran next door...let's go look. What's another few billion dollars and thousand lives? You know what that ten years of "whack a mole" did Smaug, it made him unable to be a threat. This is true because we know, we invaded the country and found that, guess what, he wasn't a threat, surprise!
As far as Clinton goes, I'm all for getting my dick sucked. HUGE fan. But you don't do it with a 20 year old ditzy airheaded blabbermouth employee in the workplace. That gets you fired at Burger King for christ sake.
Finally we agree on something, I think every male is a huge fan of fellatio. But the fact that it was wrong was not my point. I agree it was a stupid thing for Clinton to do. Go back and read what I said I think you will be able to find my point even through that thick neanderthal skull you have. And you might want to watch your knuckels, their getting bloody from dragging them on the ground so much.

Ok Smaug, you insult me so now I insult you, we're even. I hope we can go back to being friends. Obviously neither one of us is going to convince the other. I accept that. You have stated your opinions, I have stated mine. Both of us are Americans and want the same thing. Now the argument is degrading into insults and name calling so it's high time we stop. You can have the last word and respond to this post but I will not respond to that.

Best wishes my friend,
mbauer

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Post by Smaug » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:00 pm

Thousands of human lives later, billions of dollars later, 2 entire countries in ruins and maybe they were wrong, just maybe.
With all the repeated bleating about how France help the US establish a free country, you'd think someone could draw the analogy to the US. and Iraq. Contrast two countries, Iraq and Afghanistan, which have just seated freely elected governments, with the country in between, Iran, which just sentenced a newspaper editor to 14 years in prison for insulting the cleric leaders.

The people of Afghanistan and Iraq are embracing freedom, and it just kills bitter anti-Bushies like you, MB.

Image

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Post by Mine » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:20 pm

afganistan is embracing opium production and not much else

america is embracing herion use x3 since afgan invasion


see any connections?

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Post by altidude » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:32 pm

Mine wrote:america is embracing herion use x3 since afgan invasion
I'll call bullshit on that "statistic". Prove it to me.

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Post by Smaug » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:14 pm

altidude wrote:I'll call bullshit on that "statistic". Prove it to me.
Don't bother, it is all a dead end.

The vast majority of Afghani heroin winds up in Europe. The American pipeline comes from Columbia and South America. There is a cyclical spike in the popularity of heroin the last few years, but it doesn't have anything to do with Afghanistan. And the world is certainly better positioned now to stop Afghani poppy production that it was with the Taliban there.

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Post by Mine » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:20 pm

better positioned ?
but doing nothing about it. over 400 herion plants (unodc), and 17900 us troops doing nothing about it. We know where the plants are. hmm seems like support to me.

the taliban nearly eradicated poppy production. 185 tons in 2001.
afganistan under american rule, 3400 tons in 2003
stop projecting/wishing/making up lies


evil
/ l \
money money money

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Post by Smaug » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:22 pm

Look, you are taking the wrong tack to get my attention. I'm a libertarian, I think all drugs should be legal. And taxed.

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Post by Mine » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:34 pm

fuk tax.
i dont like the way the govt spends my money.

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Post by Smaug » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:01 pm

Mine wrote:fuk tax. I dont like the way the govt spends my money.
On that we agree.

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Post by fluffernuffer » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:11 pm

Smaug wrote:3. Alec Baldwin
:smt044 :smt044 :smt044

And please, please, PLEEEEEAAASE Mine...if you are going to contribute to the forums please run a spell check once in a while. I thought you liberal types were supposed to be more educated than us dumb bumpkin conservatives.

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Post by Mine » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:25 pm

you and my grade school teachers should talk. I can spell however, i just dont care to. thomas jefferson said that spelling words the same way everytime is a sign of a lack of imagination. go phonix

smaug said: on that we agree

Cheers!!

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Post by fluffernuffer » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:27 pm

<<Last edited by Mine on Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:32 pm; edited 2 times in total>>

A for effort!

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